Talk:List of climate change controversies

Edit request from 68.8.49.153, 15 August 2011

Global warming from carbon dioxide accumulation is a shibboleth. Total solar output is the true primary planetary temperature driver. Carbon dioxide is sequestered in the ocean by calciferous phytoplankton and falls to the ocean floor as calcium carbonate. It remains there until it is released again via volcanic action millions of years from now. Because of this CO2 sequestering process, it may be difficult for the earth to maintain sufficient atmospheric carbon dioxide levels for abundant life as volcanic activity decreases. Temperature depends on the Sun. Life depends on CO2.

Richard Benedict 08/15/2011 68.8.49.153 (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Very interesting, I'm sure you have some peer reviewed sources that demonstrate this. Sorry but we need reliable sources before we can include this, and it's only fair as the other side of the AGW debate have gone to some lengths to provide them, and it would be remiss of Wikipedia to include this new information on the word of an anonymous IP. Cheers ^Khukri 10:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, while "interesting", the kernel of truth is too small to take any action. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:50, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The grain of truth may relate rather closely to one explanation of the PETM, that plate tectonic movements heated sediments containing carbonate, releasing large quantities of carbon dioxide and methane.[1] Oddly enough, this hypothesis doesn't seem to be covered in our PETM article, a deficiency needing action. . . dave souza, talk 11:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

A tag was recently added proposing a merge from Climatic Research Unit email controversy. I strongly oppose this proposal. That article is about a notable event that can clearly stand by itself. It is also a huge article—perhaps too big—but in any case large enough that integrating it would flood this article with undue weight. Plus, it's not that closely related, to the point that nobody has even added a mention of it in the main text. –CWenger (^ • @) 22:14, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I would wait until we see what the rationale was for the merge prior to stating whether we agree or disagree with it. Cheers ^Khukri 22:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The Climatic Research Unit email controversy is one of many global warming controversies that took place in the popular media, not in the scientific literature. A link to it currently appears in the see also section, but there is no coverage of this "notable event" in this article, in particular, in the "related controversies" or "politics" section. This article is in poor shape, with much of the content either outdated or irrelevant, so I recommend a complete overhaul, including the summary style merging of so-called global warming controversies like the Climatic Research Unit email controversy, the Ben Santer controversy, the Soon and Baliunas controversy, the hockey stick controversy, the Attorney General of Virginia's climate science investigation, and many others. This topic is really not a subset of global warming, as there is little controversy about it. This topic is a subset of climate change denial and should be rewritten to reflect the scope of the manufactured controversies created by deniers. Viriditas (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that Ben Santer controversy is not an article; it's a redirect (created by Viriditas yesterday) to a section of Benjamin D. Santer. The section in question has a "main article" tag pointing to Chapter 8 controversy. This in turn is not an article. It's a redirect created by Viriditas just now to Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change#IPCC Second Assessment Report: Climate Change 1995. I mention this because these redirects can give the impression there are a lot of articles unnecessarily titled "controversy", which would lend weight to the argument for a radical clean up. I don't know if there are more redirects that have been created by Viriditas like this; it would be helpful if he could update us.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that user Viriditas also deleted a large part of the prior text from that section of the IPCC article and added other text. I can't decide if his goal is to reduce the perception of controversy or to increase that perception. Maybe we should worry more about clear coverage of more contemporary events. AR2 was in 1995 after all.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I see. So, I'm a climate denier now, is that it? My edits removed unreliable sources and summarized the subject using one of the best sources available. Is there a particular reason you are talking about my motives rather than my edits? I have ignored Vsevolod's ridiculous and erroneous assertions about my beliefs, but if this nonsense continues, I will file a report on the both of you. Viriditas (talk) 07:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I only claimed to be confused, I never called you anything. If you want me to explain in ANI I can oblige, but maybe you'll choose to start with trying to resurrect Roger Revelle controversy and Ben Santer controversy from my succesful request for speedy deletion. Please file or stop with the threats. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:37, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

We don't deal with motives, only contributions. If you can't tell what my motives are or what POV I hold, that means I've successfully adhered to the WP:NPOV, so you owe me a barnstar. Since you are new and confused (per your own admission) you obviously don't understand the purpose of a redirect, or how the controversy over the use of Roger Revelle's name was established in Singer v. Lancaster and the media controversy surrounding Singer's claims about Revelle, or how the Ben Santer "controversy" is fully supported by the sources used in the Chapter 8 controversy across multiple articles. None of these redirects was an "attack" as you claim, nor is there any evidence whatsoever that I've at any time "attacked" a biographical figure on Wikipedia. Your confusion is understandable, but your willful ignorance is not. You get a free pass on the former, but not on the latter. Viriditas (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Please file at ANI or stop mudslinging. I have a different good faith interpretation of events, but I've given up hope we can discuss it constructively. So please file or stop threatening me. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice try, but that's not how we use the term "good faith". You may want to read WP:AGF. You've been assuming bad faith about me from the beginning and commenting on what you think I think rather than on my contributions. Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. User:Viriditas is under the impression, of which he will not be disabused, that Climate Research Unit email controversy is a "non-event" on the grounds that it did not show anything wrong with climate science. In other words he thinks there was no "controversy" (six enquiries, massive media coverage etc etc. notwithstanding). I get the impression that he thinks people opposing him want the page to be a POVFORK to promote an attack on climate science. His talkpage behaviour is really quite tendentious - see this thread Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#The_CRU_EMails_are_no_longer_considered_a_Controversy for a textbook example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:01, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Viriditas is under the impression...he thinks...I get the impression that he thinks... You must be kidding me. That is the most absurd reasoning I've ever seen in my entire time here. Stop trying to tell me what I think or what you think I think. I've never said a word of any of that, and it appears that you have a habit of making stuff up. You were quite clearly told on the CRU talk page, "That there was a media controversy is not in dispute".[2] In other words, everything you've said is false. Viriditas (talk) 21:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
    • You really need to stop with these claims that I make things up, Viriditas. In your own words: "This manufactured controversy isn't a controversy"; "Back on topic: what is controversial about this subject? Why is it a "controversy" and not a "hacking"? Where is the controversy?" - indeed you ask variations of that question several times (and get an answer each time, and from a variety of users). My "impression" was based, inter alia, on this statement, which comes after a few attempts to answer your question: "Please describe the controversy in your own words. It sounds like you are saying that this controversy is about global warming. In which case, I have now added the merge tag to global warming controversy." As for it being a media controversy, that point had been made by myself and others before that statement of yours.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 23:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • More misinterpretation. Establishing a consensus in a discussion with editors who maintain different views about what the controversy is and is not is only possible by asking them to describe it in their own words. You misinterpreted rhetorical questions that were intended to establish a consensus as some kind of denial of climate change. Cerejota finally answered that question, bringing the discussion to a close. We have achieved a consensus on the talk page, and if it is challenged again (and it will be), we will point to that discussion. I think you failed to understand what was under discussion. You are apparently unaware that this controversy has been challenged day in and day out for years now. The only way to establish a consensus is to have editors answer these questions. Viriditas (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
        • In that case, several editors have misinterpreted your rhetorical questions as genuine questions that were supposed to be answered (indeed, you have finally accepted one of those answers - which was a nice summary of everyone else's answers. Great - let's move on). By the way, I have never suggested you deny climate change in any way shape or form. I have absolutely no idea where you get that idea from.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose ^Khukri 08:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. I've removed the merge tag and replaced it with the move portions from tag per my comments above. Viriditas (talk) 12:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• Still Oppose on grounds of prematurity Since Viriditas believes (and could be correct) that "This article is in poor shape, with much of the content either outdated or irrelevant, so [Viriditas] recommend[s] a complete overhaul...", then IMO this merge suggestion is premature. Surgeons don't do a skin graft on someone with a gushing arterial bleeder. First they do critical care on the patient's body and THEN they merge stuff in. Same principle. If you think this article is a mess, please clean it up over several weeks (so people can comment on changes) but stopping short of "including the summary style merging of so-called global warming controversies". Once you get the receiving article whipped into shape I'll be better able to appreciate your suggestions about merging in other info.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:37, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Yawn. Please review WP:SEEALSO. It is expected that global warming controversies like the list I provided above would be found in this article. Viriditas (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
• Question - Is there a reason that there is no merge to template on the CRU controversy article?Jarhed (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, there is a reason. The reason is, there is no proposed merge under discussion. Viriditas (talk) 03:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Oh good grief, the title of the talk page section I am writing this in is "merger proposal". I see that the template now says something about moving sections, it is a template that I have never seen before but no matter. The merge process has two templates, one for the source article and one for the survivor. Among other things, this gives everyone who might be watching those articles an indication about what is going on and an opportunity to respond. So let me ask again: Is there a reason that a corresponding source template is not located on the CRU controversies article, which would give everyone watching that article some indication of what is being proposed and a chance to comment on the proposal?Jarhed (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • I don't see any reason to put a template on the CRU article. It is entirely non-controversial to add summary style into parent topics. Do you see a reason why a global warming controversy like the CRU hacking should not be mentioned here? It's already in the see also, and best practice is to move links from the see also section into the body. I'm not seeing anything that needs to be discussed. Viriditas (talk) 13:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
        • Pursuant to Roman numeral II on this page I added a merge-to tag to the CRU article.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
        • I suggest that it would be good for the project if you would err on the side of transparency.Jarhed (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
          • I'll ignore your personal attack. There's no merge under discussion, so I removed the tag. I've been nothing but transparent. I would invite you to show otherwise. Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
            • I wish you hadn't accused me of attacking you, because I don't see how a fair reading of my comment could give you that impression. Good luck with your section move.Jarhed (talk) 03:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose One article has 119 references and the other has 224. These are two independent articles about different things. I see that the suggestion has changed from the entire article to just a few sections. Really? What sections? Why? This seems like a very bad idea with no purpose. Q Science (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • It's not a bad idea at all; it's how we write articles. There's a new category that's just been created, Category:Global warming controversy. Let's use that as an example. Ideally, all major GWC's would be covered in this article in some way, either through a link or summary style. Essentially, the examples within the category would be part of this article, and they would illustrate certain parts of the article. In this example, the CRU controversy could fit into several sections, such as the "Data archiving and sharing" subsection. This suggestion has not changed, I only used a better tag. CWenger and others jumped the gun, implying it meant something that it did not, arguing against a straw man rather than good article practice. This article is about the global warming controversy, yet makes little to mention of examples of these controversies. The CRU already appears as a see also and should be merged into the body. This does not require a proposal or discussion, it is basically how the writing process works on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Question - Is there a summary of the proposed move that editors can review?Jarhed (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

For the record, although I added the missing tag to the CRU article, this is Viriditas' proposal. I don't know if V provided any info about the proposal other than comments in this thread. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Noting that a parent article should mention its daughter articles and that relevant see also's should be merged into the body isn't a "proposal". It's how we write articles. Viriditas (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Your tone is condescending, and your "notes" are nowhere that I can see.Jarhed (talk) 03:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• oppose topic is notable, if it weren't, AfD would be in order. It is true the article needs work, but that's it - interestingly, I agree with Viridita's reasoning up to the point he alleges a "popular controversy" doesn't belong in wikipedia. Clearly we should give primacy to scientific perspectives, but ignoring popular debates is un-instructive and in fact, unscientific. The greatest scientists tend also to be great popularizers, unafraid to meet head butts in the public arena on the terms of popular skepticism: Einstein, Darwin, Hawkings, you name it.--Cerejota (talk) 22:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • There is no active merge proposal, so there is nothing to oppose. I never said a popular controversy doesn't belong in Wikipedia, so you must be thinking of another editor. I said that the CRU controversy "is one of many global warming controversies that took place in the popular media, not in the scientific literature", which is a fact supported by the sources. The modus operandi of climate change denial is to use the popular media to argues points they can't get pulbished in the peer review literature. Surely, you know this? Viriditas (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Then why are all these people opposing? It is customary to provide a rationale, but one is not needed: the templates are clear. We are SNOWing oppose. And yes I misunderstood you position, striking.--Cerejota (talk) 22:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • Why are all these people opposing? Because they are responding to CWenger and other editors who maintain that there is a merge proposal under discussion. Good luck trying to find it. Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
        • (ec) Viriditas added a merger template. This he later changed to a move portions tag, indicating a move of at least some material from one article to the other was being proposed. Viriditas, as the person who placed the tag, which portions do you think should be moved? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 22:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
          • I was under the impression that the merge tag was once used to request summary style expansions of daughter articles. Based on the initial response by CWenger, it became clear that this was now the wrong tag. I changed it to a variation on the move portions tag, which I'm still not clear is correct. I'm trying to get the links in the see also merged into the body of the article, with additional summary style content. I explain this in more detail above at 21:14. We have a description of the controversy in detail, but few illustrative examples have been merged into the topic. Viriditas (talk) 23:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm thoroughly confused. The first post in this discussion is an opposition. Who is proposing merger and what is his/her reasoning? ScottyBerg (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I hope NewsAndEventsGuy answers and tells you all about how I'm pushing climate change denial. Viriditas (talk) 22:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Confused? No wonder. But I think I understand now.

• Originally, Viriditas added a mergeFROM tag to this article [[3]]

• On his own talk page, in a comment that he quickly deleted, Viriditas denied being the editor who added the mergeFROM tag. [[4]]

UPDATE: Since I believe in admitting error, subsequent comment by V alerted me to an ambiguity in that text which I - in good faith - interpreted wrong. If anyone wants details of that ambiguity and possible interpretations write me at my talk page please. I apologize for my half of that particular misunderstanding, V. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• After the mergeFROM was added to this article, a different editor started this discussion about the tag. (see start of this thread)

• Along the way, Viriditas changed the merge-from tag on this article to a move-portions-from tag. [[5]]

• Since Viritidas did not tell us of the change in tag, he's left us all flapping while he protests there is no merge discussion. After all, it is now a move-portions-from discussion.

• I can't find any substantive explanation of how to use the move-portions-from tag, except in the version history for that template where it makes a vague reference to being parallel to merge-from. I'm not sure what that means but it sure sounds like the tags are synonymous, Viriditas' protestations there is no relevant discussion notwithstanding. It was his tag after all.

• I also see a lot in wiki:help about disruptive editing. Personally, I'm struggling to see Viriditas' contradictory edits, denial of his own acts, and personal barbs in this conversation as anything other than disruptive. I've never accused V of being a climate hawk or a denier, but I do think his conduct in this matter has been disruptive. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:07, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

PS Correction, Viriditas did explain about the wrong tag during the hour I was compiling the above comment (and juggling cooking dinner). [[6]] I still see no difference between merge portions from and move portions from and still view the exercise as a disruption.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Please stop distracting this discussion. We don't discuss other editors on article talk pages, we discuss topics . To correct another one of your failed conspiracy theories, I said that this merge proposal "was mistakenly opened by another editor because the wrong tag was used". The other editor refers to User:CWenger who started this merge proposal thread at 22:14 and I'm the one who added the original tag. That message was removed from my talk page per WP:DTTR as the offending editor was informed. As for your repeated insinuations that I'm a sooper-sekrit climate change denier pretending to be a warmist who is only interested in attacking climate scientists, you've been making those kinds of absurd accusations and formulating these bizarre conspiracies on multiple pages for the past 24 hours. On this page you even said, I can't decide if his goal is to reduce the perception of controversy or to increase that perception. You need to stop doing this. Go role play somewhere else. You can continue opposing a non-existent merge proposal based on non-existent reasons all you like, but you continue to ignore my actual statement on this matter at the top of this thread dated 00:08. That's right, you haven't addressed a single word I've said. Instead, I'm subjected to a constant barrage of personal attacks and conspiracy theories about my motives, all of which have been shown to be a product of your wild and unrestrained imagination. Address the topic of discussion or remain silent. It is that simple. Viriditas (talk) 00:30, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

In consensus, reasonable minds can differ, especially when those minds have to interpret (often unconsciously) ambiguities in the written word. If you are convinced there's only one way to read stuff and I've been abusing you, then file your complaint and I'll defend myself by explaining how reasonable minds can extract different good faith interpretations of the relevant and often ambiguous language. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

We do discuss editors, when editor's behavior is the topic. That said, NandEGuy, you are stretching the definition of disruption here a bit. No one doubts that Viriditas is acting in good faith, and that is enough to know there is no disruption. That said, there seems to be a mistake done, and we should focus on solving it on equal good faith.

In consensus, reasonable minds can differ, especially when those minds have to interpret (often unconsciously) ambiguities in the written word. If you are convinced there's only one way to read stuff and I've been abusing you, then file your complaint and I'll defend myself by explaining how reasonable minds can extract different good faith interpretations of the relevant and often ambiguous language. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, Viriditas, do you want to propose a merger of a section?

Then my suggestion is we get an uninvolved admin or editor, have them close this section, and then open a new one with a criteria according to Viridita according to the criteria Viridita proposes. Then we can have a discussion according to the criteria.

I am right or am I missing something?--Cerejota (talk) 00:53, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I've got a lot of things on my plate, and lots of things I was supposed to have written yesterday, so I'm a big fan of streamlining the process and discussion. To that end I propose the following:

• Even though I retracted the merge tag, that doesn't seem to have changed the focus of the discussion, so I would like to retract the current tag as well, including the tag NAEG added to the CRU article.
• There needs to be a discussion about what to do about global warming controversy child articles and whether they should be represented in this parent topic. An editor recently created Category:Global warming controversy which if legitimate, should be added to related articles and mirror the major coverage in this topic. If not, the category should be removed and deleted.

That's about it for now. I'll disappear from here for a while so that I can finish some other tasks. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

V, you have my blessing to remove both tags. I suggest we officially CLOSE this thread, and start afresh one when you've caught up on your writing. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with tag removal, and also that Category:Global warming controversy needs looking at. It's a category created as the first act by new user:Zetaalfa (in this topic area especially that's a small alarm bell) who has only edited to add this category (SPA alarm bell) and the inclusions in the category appear to be almost entirely climate sceptics and deniers (another alarm bell). It might be benign, but the potential for conveniently mixing up genuine scientific controversies and media controversies is there. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 01:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Moving forward - specific suggestion for disambiguation with some TBD impact on other pages pending receptivity of basic idea

Prior fracas aside, I agree the article needs work. I've been wondering what broad break downs we could make in the wild and crazy clump called "global warming controversy" and IMO the best way forward is via disambiguation and redirects to appropriate pages. I'm stopping short of suggesting exactly how to dice slice merge and move text around because that would be premature. First I thought I'd float the disambiguation idea itself. Here's a poor stab at a first attempt:

"Global warming controversy" could refer to:

• Scientific debate about past, present, or future climate change, i.e., debate between researchers based on an assumption of good faith, following the scientific method, and conducted mainly through the peer reviewed literature and various official review panels, such as the IPCC. A brief history of notable events in that process is covered at some page somewhere, a summary of the current mainstream scientific thinking is covered at global warming, and contrary opinions of various individual scientists can be found at List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

• Political debate about what to do, assuming the scientific position is correct, i.e., debate between government, NGO, media, and the general public about what measures to take, if any, when, and who should pay for it. See some page somewhere

• Alternative scientific theories advanced in public media, i.e., various arguments used by climate skeptics in blogs and popular press instead of the peer reviewed scientific literature, i.e., ( what should we say? ). Some of these theories are described at some page somewhere some of the contents in this article could go there

• Allegations of fraudulent scientific data and conclusions, i.e, allegations of legal or professional misconduct as opposed to honest scientific error. An example are the unproven formal allegations of data fabrication following the CRU email hacking. The main article covering such allegations is some page somewhere

At the moment I lack a pithy way to add climate change denialism in this outline, but it surely merits inclusion.

Comments anybody? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

For articles themselves we need to do two things: as much as possible to match the categorisations made in the real world, and also be very careful not to allow media storms to overwhelm our reporting of verifiable information. With regard to that second point, I'm uncomfortable with the use of the words "allegations" and "fraud", as potentially many such "allegations" are without any foundation; literature on denialism shows that getting the accusation out is part of a political strategy, and it's one we would be in danger of endorsing.

What this page covers is a media and political phenomenon, backed by only very, very sparse scientific literature. The page as it is I think makes a slightly unhappy division between political and scientific challenges; some "scientific challenges" are RS-arguably political or quasi-political challenges in the guise of science. In one sense that is inevitable on this topic, but I think we can do a better job than this. Some questions:

• Is the purpose of this page to act as a list of commonly stated objections? (and should it contain refutations or answers, acting as a kind of summarised skepticalscience?) At the moment it leaves a lot of challenges standing uncountered, giving the impression that they both have validity and have not been answered. This misleads readers. That said, perhaps making part of this article into Global warming (alternative theories) could provide for a clear and delineated article.
• Is the purpose to identify who has been making these objections to the climate consensus (analysis of political and commercial forces)?
• Does it/should it distinguish between respectable (ie in the literature) objections, and objections that have received RS coverage but have not appeared in the literature (such as the surfacestations objection, which has been shown to have no merit by RS)? We can't go into the blogs ourselves, of course, only into the secondary literature on them.

Anyway, that's my tuppence hapenny.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Who or what is "McCright & Dunlap 2000 p. 500."?

Who or what is "McCright & Dunlap 2000 p. 500."? It is currently reference [5]. 99.35.12.88 (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

CLOUD

Is there some reason the results of the recent CLOUD experiment, which is documented in Nature, should not be included in the section on Solar variation? Ronnotel (talk) 17:37, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Please post some draft text here, with verifiable citations, so I know what you propose to include, and please review [this article] as you prepare your draft. Thanks, NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think Ronnotel has answered their own question. Following their link to CLOUD we find, "preliminary research ... tentative link ... 'leaves open the possibility that cosmic rays could also influence climate. However, it is premature to conclude that cosmic rays have a significant influence on climate until the additional nucleating vapours have been identified, their ion enhancement measured, and the ultimate effects on clouds have been confirmed.'" This is an article about a controversy, not about preliminary research and tentative links that leave open possibilities. Someone may want to make a controversy out of them, but it shouldn't be us. There's a cartoon somewhere about how research like that ends up as silly headlines in the silly media. --Nigelj (talk) 18:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the comic you have in mind is this. I've just today listened to an interview with the CLOUD primary investigator on the Nature Podcast, and he was very careful to state that the results establish no connection to climate change and are only a very preliminary first step to better understand cloud formation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:36, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

No Scientific Organization Disagrees

I have removed the sentence: "No scientific body of international standing disagrees with this view, though a few organizations hold non-committal positions" ("this view" being "that global surface temperatures have increased in recent decades and that the trend is caused mainly by human-induced emissions of greenhouse gases"). This is extremely misleading, if not simply false. The organizations that "hold non-committal positions" in fact disagree with the consensus view that our understanding of the climate is complete enough to warrant the confident assertion that global warming is largely anthropogenic. That is, they believe that we cannot legitimately claim to know that global warming is primarily caused by human activity, as opposed to other potential factors. Whoever wrote this sentence is confusing being non-committal regarding the truth of the proposition "global warming is mainly human-induced" (which these organizations are) with being non-committal regarding the truth of the consensus claim that the evidence proves that proposition correct (which they are not). — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenDen1 (talk • contribs) 20:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Reverted due to poor logic. For example, long ago, I mentioned to a sexy, single, vivacious female housemate that I'd never been dancing and was noncomittal about whether dancing is fun. She took it upon herself to gather up a half dozen really fun girlfriends and they all dragged me out on the floor, just us, for the entire evening. (True story.) This was incontrovertible evidence! Dancing can be fun! Thank god I didn't just refuse saying my noncommital status was synonymous with a belief that dancing stinks. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I am non-committal as to the edit itself, but I have incontrovertible evidence that I just laffed my ass off!--Cerejota (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The snide and sarcastic tone aside, your rebuttal appears incoherent to me (as I suspect it would appear to a large percentage of readers). Please indicate the "poor" logic in clear, literal language, without the fascinating tidbits regarding your social life, if at all possible. BenDen1 (talk) 21:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)BenDen