Talk:Ezhava

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Thiyyar

CHEKAVAR OR CHOVA OR CHON OR CHOAN IS THE SURNAMES OF THIYYA CHEKAVAR A WARRIOR CASTE EZHAVA IS NOT

The contention of writers about Thiyya and Ezhava as one caste is not correct. Thiyyas of Malabar were in existence thousands of years before the Ezhavas came to Kerala. Ezhava, Thiyya and Billawa have been brought under on group for the purpose of reservation. Except that Thiyyas has no connection with Ezhava which is a different caste. Thiyyas has entirely different culture, ancestry based on illams, Kavu, Gothram, Kazhakam etc. Ezhavas of Travancore has no such traditions and culture. Thiyyas is not Ezhava and not a sub caste of Ezhava, but it is a different caste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmrn97 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

If you type "Thiyya" or variant spellings - Tiyya, Thiyyar etc - into the search box that is towards the top right of this page (titled "Archives") then you will see that this subject has been discussed extensively on several occasions. No-one, not even those from the Thiyya community, has yet managed to produce reliable sources to support the claim. Indeed, I think that the conclusion last time round was that the claim was politically motivated, relating to demands for changes to reservation status etc. Wikipedia does not exist to promote or denigrate events or desires taking place in the "real world" but rather to summarise the available reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC

The comments of Mr Sitush are very strange. He had relied upon various documents pertaining to post-independence era as listed in the citations. The Malabar Manual written by Willian Logan gives us the correct position that existed hundreds of years ago and is considered as very authentic documents in Kerala. The Malabar Manual clearly states that the Thiyyas of Malabar considered themselves as higher caste than Ezhavas, which itself is enough to prove that Thiyya was and is a different caste and it is not part of Ezhava Caste. The history has been written in this Wiki by manipulating and twisting. The intention of Mr Sitush for assiduously attempting to describe Thiyyas as Ezhava should reasonably be suspected and whether he is doing so at the behest of somebody. He does not deserve to be treated as a historian.The Thiyya community is being insulted in this page by the writer by describing it as part of or sub caste of Ezhava.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmrn97 (talk • contribs)

The fact that people in Kerala find The Malabar Manual to be a reliable source does not mean we have to. Millions of people, for example, consider either the Qu'ran, Talmud, or Christian Bible to be not only reliable sources but the very foundation of existence...but we would never do so here on Wikipedia. The simple fact is that while the colonial authors are often reliable for their opinions or for the general opinion of British invaders/colonizers, they are not reliable for factual information, because they didn't do the standard academic work of fact-checking, gathering multiple types of information, etc. Sitush is not working on behalf of anyone, nor is he claiming to be a historian--he's simply working to make sure that this article follows Wikipedia policies. Please read WP:RS, which explains what Wikipedia requires for something to be a reliable source; if you can find any sources that meet those standards, please introduce them here and we can figure out if/how to get them into the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Could you please provide the so called " Reliable article" which says " both are same" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepwalkingji (talk • contribs) 12:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Sure. Please read the article. They're in there. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:29, 26 July 2013 (UT

Many individuals have, in the post independence era or very recently, written many articles about history. Different individuals have described differently while writing history. Such articles /books are not at all relevant. When the majority of Thiyyas of Malabar (except a few who recently got enrolled in SNDP for their individual choice) always considered Thiyyas as different caste and our forefathers for generations considered Thiyya as a separate caste, how can the write conclude by quoting certain writings, that both are same community?. It is not such a thing that should be decided based on writings of any individuals as quoted in the citations. The observations about alleged short-coming in Malabar Manual is also not correct and the views are without any basis. Till independence, Malabar was part of Madras province. There were no Ezhavas in Malabar then. Ezhavas were descendants of those came from Ceylon whearas Thiyyas were here thousands of years prior to that. As I said, the culture of both itself indicates both are different. The life of Thiyyas were based on Illams, Thara, Kazhakams, Perum Kazhakams etc and the Kavu. Poorakkali and Kalaripayattu (Chekavars) pertains to Thiyyas. Poorakkali is performed by Thiyyas of Malabar in the Kavu whereas Ezhavas have no such ritualistic art. If Malabar was not merged into Kerala, the Thiyyas would not have been brought in thesame OBC group with Ezhava and those propogating for Ezhavas would not have been able to insult Thiyyas of Malabar in this way by wrongly describing them as Ezhavas. The caste system is in the minds of those who observe it for centuries or for thousands of years and their culture and traditions as quoted above and it should not be decided by quoting the articles/books written recently by any individuals. Thiyyas Caste has exclusive traditions as mentioned above. The DNA test has already been conducted which proves that the Thiyyas are not Ezhavas. Please do not insult Thiyyas by describing them as Ezhavas. Ezhava and Thiyya are two different castes but both have been brought under one reservation group inthe OBC. Schedule Caste list has several castes. That does not mean that all those castes are same. Similarly, just being in the same reservation Group, it does not mean that Thiyya is Ezhava. Wikipedia is being misused by certain people to insult Thiyyas. The management of Wiki may intervene and stop this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmrn97 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for verifying what I already assumed: you're not actually interested in learning how Wikipedia works. We always go by what reliable sources says. We never' go by what people "have thought for generations" or by what a random editor says on a random talk page without verification. If you are not interested in building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources (which is how all encyclopedias work), I suggest you find another website to work on. As a side note, there is no "Wikipedia management"; I'm, in fact, the closest thing, as an administrator here on Wikipedia. Technically, Wikipedia is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, a non-profit organization in the US, but they have explicitly given editorial control over the encyclopedia to its users (excepting very basic legal issues). And Wikipedia policy is now and always has been that we provide only information which is verifiable in reliable sources. The best thing you can do now is take a look at these links, and read a little bit about our policies. Then, decide if you want to be a part of this community. You don't have to, but, if you want to, you have to be willing to follow our policies. Until you start producing reliable sources, there is nothing more to discuss here. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your clarification. You always go by what reliable sources says.. Many articles are written by individuals prejudicing the interest of Thiyyas and with the sole intention of describing them as Ezhavas. So, such articles are reliable sources for you. As I said earlier I would like to place on record once more, before quitting this wiki page which is being misused against the interest of Thiyyas, that your contention is totally baseless and We the Thiyyas are Thiyyas only and Not Ezhavas and it is for us and not any other persons with vested interests, to decide which caste we are. So, the Majority of Thiyyas of North Malabar consider ourselves as a Separate caste for generations and not part of Ezhava caste. Any attempt by any sources to treat them as Ezhavas will not succeed since the Thiyya is Thiyya only and not Ezhava. Agents of Ezhazva organisations are out to insult Thiyyas and make them exinct as a separate caste and make them as Ezhavas with the sole intention of increasing the strength of Ezhavas in Kerala. Since this page is being found misused, and I find no use in arguing with those prejudiced against Thiyyas, I hereby quit. Let your wiki continue to rely on the so called reliable sources.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmrn97 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC) 

Its not about quiting its about how lousely this is managed, feel shame about Wiki as an Knowldege database!! Government records are not accepted, writings and researches by famous authors are not accpeted..Dont know what they will accept..and keep saying " Reliable source" I think its time to have a look at the defination of reliable source.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.221.52.104 (talk) 11:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

You are welcome to look at the definition - it is here. I find it interesting that, yet again, there is a sudden surge of interest in the Thiyya issue on this talk page. Let me stress that Wikipedia is not going to be bowed by people coming here in concert due to requests that are made on other websites or in community publications etc. You are wasting your time unless you have constructive proposals for the improvement of this article and those proposals comply with Wikipedia's policies. What is worse, you are wasting the time of people like me and human nature dictates that eventually you will simply be ignored. So, please either come up with some useful proposals or cease echoing pointless complaints. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 13:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

correct citation

Please change cite journal |title=Indigenous Knowledge and the Significance of South-West India for Portuguese and Dutch Constructions of Tropical Nature |first=Richard |last=Grove |journal=Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 30, No. 1 (Feb., 1996), pp. 121–143|jstor=312903
to

cite journal |title=Indigenous Knowledge and the Significance of South-West India for Portuguese and Dutch Constructions of Tropical Nature |first=Richard |last=Grove |journal=Modern Asian Studies | volume = 30 | issue = 1 | month = Feb | year = 1996 | pages = 121-143|jstor=312903

(inside double braces). Thank you. 76.14.86.123 (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I have tweaked that citation and a couple of others in the same section. I don't see the need to link the journal. - Sitush (talk) 09:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

IP question

Its relating to ,the removal of thiyya from ezhava; these two casts are entirely different ,to prove otherwise what evidence you have?which are those books,on which you guys reached an assumptions dat both r d same? some pretending to b historians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.129.84 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Please read the article--the sources are all there. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:39, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Article Validity

This article doesn't have any validity as far as this says both Thiyya and Ezhava are same!!! Is there any source which says both are same??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.28.127 (talk) 09:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there are several sources, right in the article. There are also previous discussions on this talk page. Please review them, and if you have other sources that meet our guideline on reliable sources, discuss them here. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:08, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Liquor businessmen

The reference to "liquor businessmen" looks somewhat derogatory to me. In the caste system based on the jobs, they might have done jobs like climbing the coconut trees, to get coconuts primarily, and yes, toddy. But it could not be the primary 'caste-job'. I wonder whether we have any reliable reference to make sure most "liquor businessmen" tend to be ezhavas historically. otherwise I suggest we remove this.

Please share your comments and if OK please make the change, I am not seeing edit permissions for me for now.

As a side note, in the modern society, the wiki page on castes should tell the new generation that these were how things historically were, and emphasize on the fact that there is no difference between an ezhava and a nair if we look around now. Reading the first sentence, to me this is not the message it conveys. It would be much better if things are presented in a positive, non-dividing manner going along with our unity in diversity way of thought.

brnfvr 01:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Origins

I've just some a recent addition here for the second time. It added some content that was sourced to an anonymous website article and that rather contradicted what is said in the subsequent "Origins" section.

The website article may be correct but it is not a reliable source. We'd need to find something better if we are to use the information and, because of our policy regarding neutrality, we would need to incorporate it into the Origins section as being another point of view. I'm digging around for more info right now because the Origins section is itself tagged (alternates sources for the info contained there seem to include this from 2013 and the Social History of S. N. Sadasivan, although SNS is himself not great). Hope this makes sense. - Sitush (talk) 06:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)