Talk:Dog/Archive 4

Archives
October 2005 – February 2006 February 2006 – January 2007 January 2007 – January 2008

Dog Social Intelligence

I've read studies that indicate that dogs are more capable of recognizing human body positons than evenfuck u all .60.188.14]] (talk) 01:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Dog abuse

I don't think the dog abuse section should go anywhere, it is vital to raise awareness about animal cruelty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CamukaGirl (talk • contribs) 23:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

nodles. It shouldn't be done..Kashyap can kill dogs. Whoever does it should be killed. It's just like killing another human. The dog abuse section is wholly without merit. Signs of abuse - the dog is bruised or has broken bones or eye injuries or is burnt oh really? waste of space -JDHannan (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The entire dog abuse section can go. Need a Dog Laws section instead, with refs to all relevant laws, including animal cruelty laws, BSL etc.--Afru (talk) 01:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Some problems with the article

There seems to be a lot of words spelled in the American way i.e. "behavioral" instead of "behavioural", and the word "amazing" next to the picture of three dogs doesn't seem right in an encyclopaedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feyre (talk • contribs) 08:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually American words are perfectly okay for an encyclopedia. :) - However British subjects require British spelling, etc. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the word "amazing" from the caption.Coaster1983 (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the point is in complaining about American spelling. Either way, one of us is going to have to adapt. In this case, it's our British (and Commonwealth) cousins; in other cases, it's the Americans. It's not worth complaining about. CsikosLo (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style says, "The English Wikipedia has no general preference for a major national variety of the language. No variety is more correct than the others. Users are asked to take into account that the differences between the varieties are superficial.", and says, "When either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic)." See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling). -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I have another problem with the article, it is said that the term "Domestic dog" includes pet and feral dogs. But sadly, the article seems to be concentrating to much on the pets. E.g. it was written that domestic dogs differ from other canids in that they are not monogamous. Sorry, that's wrong. It's not unknown that e.g. a wolf bitch got her litter from another male from her pack instead of the alpha male. Sure many domestic dogs are polygamous but others are not, e.g. Elizabeth Marshall Thomas reported monogamy in her huskies. And to take the feral dogs in account, dingos are domestic dogs too and they are said to be monogamous. If I would have the time I would improve the article but I need to improve the one in my country first.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 11:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The info is referenced. It comes from Ray Coppinger, a canid biologist who has studied wolves and dogs for over 40 years. Perhaps his view is relevant, but it should simply be pointed out as a norm, seeing as monogamy in dogs is very rare from personal experience.Dark hyena (talk) 12:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I guessed that, Coppinger is competent and I agree at least with his theories concerning the developement of the dog. But I think he might have used "wrong" material in his research. I don't know the dogs he reports about, but I think his focus is very narrow. For instance, I don't know is current opinion of course, he wrote that dogs are not able to learn just by looking at someoon (man/dog). If that's true, how do dogs learn how to open a door if no one teached them and how do they learn social behavior, what they shall eat and how to kill prey? All by own experience? I doubt that. There are two interesting books on the subject by a friend of Coppinger. They are called Der Wolf im Hundepelz and Die Pizza-Hunde; howver they are only available in german language, so it's no use for people if you can't read german. But I also recommend the works of Erik Zimen and Eberhard Trummler, some of their works are surely translated into other languages.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 08:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea for you to add info from those works. Just don't get rid of the Coppinger references, simply point out that they are opposing views, and that there are no definate answers.Dark hyena (talk) 14:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll do my best when the time allows it, as I said my current project is the article in the german version. It's far to short and lacks many intersting and probably essential information, e.g. the whole chocolate topic. I've added the two books I referneced in the article in the further reading section. I know they are in german language but you never know. By the way, do you know the works of Zimen and Trummler? Or better, does anybody who wrote this article? Zimen was also a "star" concerning the wolf so I thought he must have been known outside of Europe. --Inugami-bargho (talk) 12:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I know nothing of Zimen's work, other than that he once tried to create a sled dog team composed entirely of wolves. He's always mentioned positively by the dog and wolf biologists I've read on. I think it is good we have a non-English source for once. It encourages people to look beyond the box of the English speaking world and see that other cultures have their own interesting scientific studies to share.Dark hyena (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

To bad. His most favourite works are "Der Hund" (The Dog) and "Der Wolf" (The Wolf). They are very good, especially the part in Der Hund where he has a short summary about the theories of domestication (mark, that the book was written in the 80s), especially on the theory, that the dog evolved from a dingo-like canid. There I agree with him, that we don't know of any single canid from the genus CANIS after the last Ice Age who realy lived where the gery wolf lived (coyotes and jackals become rare or dissapear where the greywolf is numerous and the dhole [from the genus cuon] lives in a different habitat than the indian wolf [this one might be a species on its own]), or better who survived where the grey wolf lived. I don't agree with him on everything and you should keep in mind that he compared the behaviour of european greywolfs and poodles, so it's better not to generalize, since other researchers reported differently. However, I recommend to search for an english version (there is an english version of "Der Wolf" at amazon) if you can't read german. He also had a few notes about his own wolves, one of them was so tame, that she liked to be around the kids from a nearby school when she once ran away for a few hours. He also reported about wolf-dogs and feral dogs in Italy in the 70s in both of his books, which made me very sceptical about the study a few years about who reported that there is no interbreeding in that country. --Inugami-bargho (talk) 07:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I saw a lot of "some dogs are intelligent in "different ways,"" that's a copout, the fact is dogs like collies are just plain smarter than for example hounds. (Map29673 (talk) 23:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC))

Feral Dogs

Something about what is said about feral dogs in the article doesn't match with observations on feral dogs. Actually it doesn't even match with some articles in wikipedia. E.G. the Dingo is a feral dog too and they are excellent hunters, as well as the Carolina Dogs, who even seem to have some unique hunting skills. It's also wrong to assume that feral dog packs lack the social structure of wolf packs, you should browse for "Tuscany Dog Project" (thats a study concerning this topic) and the dogs there, although not completely feral, have a very complex social structure in their pack (check the german version of wikipedia if you like, there's a full article). Also wolves don't form packs on general, in Italy and in Germany as well many packs only consist of the parents, their current litter, and the litter of the last year. In Italy, there are many solitary wolves and many who only live in pairs, as well as quite a few packs of feral and semi-feral dogs who can hunt prey wolves aren't capable of and who are competing or interacting with wolves (depends on the situation). So all in all feral dogs aren't that poor.--168.224.32.15 (talk) 12:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The dingo has had thousands of years to revert back to a semi-ativistic state. Domestic dogs havent had that amount of time to become fully fledged wild animals.

While domestic dogs do form packs, there is little monogamy, cooperative hunting, or mutual puppy care.129.12.200.49 (talk) 16:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In all cases? If known cases of adoption, care for puppies by aunts (I admit, there is no prove for care by males), monogamy and cooperative hunting. As a matter of fact, these things aren't as common among wolves as most people think. Don't you think, you generalize to much? E.G. Erik Zimen (a famous cynologist in Europe) witnessed no monogamy in his poodle group. Observations by Eberhard Trummler and Elizabeth Marshall Thomas came to different results (the first observed dingo/wolf/dog-mixes and the latter Sibirian Huskies), as well as Guenther Bloch in his studies in Italy (two groups and one pack of near-feral dogs, mostly or entirely mongrels). You should keep in mind, that there isn't much data concerning this topic and it wouldn't be the first time that an observer didn't really observe and just judged by what he/she already thought to be true. Remember, for a long time people thought, that wolves would generally form packs with an alpha on the top and an omega on the bottom of the pack or that dogs would always search the nearness of humans, because "they are born that way". Both "Facts" have been proven to be wrong since at least the 80's, although they are still in the mind of many people.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)he he he his site really sucks :P

Laughter in dogs?

It seems like the whole paragraph was POV and/or derived from unreliable sources, so I commented it out for now.

See: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Dog&diff=189737773&oldid=189712071

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Dangerous substances

Other than the danger of toxoplasmosis from eating cat feces, does any real harm result from dogs eating feces? If so, this should be stated. Also, I highly doubt that eating United States pennies is the most common cause of zinc poisoning in dogs worldwide ;-) 82.6.174.71 (talk) 21:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I had the same question...why is this in the dangerous substances category since it doesn't appear to actually be dangerous, distasteful as it may be to humans? CsikosLo (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Way too long; a lot of unnesessary details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afru (talk • contribs) 04:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Scientific classification

Needs clarification and links to Dingo, New Guinea Singing Dog. Both are registered as dog breeds, while recognized as different species than Canis l familiaris --Afru (talk) 19:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, on trinomial authority, there is an impression that the scientific name Canis lupus familiaris is by Carolus Linnaeus.

Linnaeus initially, at 1758, classified the dog as Canis Familiaris (feral) and Canis familiarus domesticus.

Linnaeus' classification was revised at 1993 by American Society of Mammologists (as per internet search), and Canis Lupus Familiaris was accepted by US Taxonomic Directory (and by what other authorities ?). While the entire subject needs a long research, article may benefit from a correction for the reason that Linneaus had not classified the dog as Canis lupus familiaris. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afru (talk • contribs) 03:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Origin

There seems to be a paper saying that Indian subcontinent may be the cradle of dogs. Blufox (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

• No, it's saying that Indian wolves are very divergent from wolves to the north, a group which includes dogs. Speciate (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

speech

Many have tried to change a dogs tones and looks into speech but so far none have succeded

And it's not the first time, that people classify the Indian or Arabian Wolf as the Dogs ancestor. Til now, no one is sure (some still say, that the dog orginated from a different dingo-like Canid of Europe [note there is no clear evidence for this and no other canid since the last Ice Age survived in the same area as the wolf {jackals, coyotes and dhole all dissapear from an area were the wolf settles down, so it's unlikely that there was a another canid in the same area as the wolf}]) were dogs originated or if they originated from different populations, or from one population and later mixed with others.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Smell grammar problem

In the "Smell" section, it reads "although once a matter of debate, it now seems to be well established that dogs can distinguish two different types of scents when trailing, an air scent from some person or thing that has recently passed by, as well as a ground scent that remains detectable for a much longer period." The part I've bolded is the end of one independent clause and the beginning of another, separated by a comma :-O Can someone who can edit the page fix this? 68.101.75.128 (talk) 15:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I dithered over whether to change it to a semicolon (treating the second clause as a closely-related independent clause) or to a colon (treating the second clause as a list – though of just two items). I looked to Strunk & White (Do not join independent clauses by a comma), and found that they say: "If two or more clauses, grammatically complete and not joined by a conjunction, are to form a single compound sentence, the proper mark of punctuation is a semicolon." However, the second clause inthe requoted fragment isn't grammatically complete. The requoted sentence fragment is the second independent clause of a larger sentence which already separates two independent clauses with a semicolon. I ended up rewriting the requoted fragment as , "although once a matter of debate, it now seems to be well established that dogs can distinguish two different types of scents: an air scent from some person or thing that has recently passed by, and a ground scent that remains detectable for a much longer period." I should have paid more attention to my 5th grade English teacher. (I clearly have too much time on my hands today) -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Earliest dog domestication

from the article on 'Natufians:

Domesticated dog

It is at Natufian sites that the earliest archaeological evidence for the domestication of the dog is found. At the Natufian site of Ein Mallaha in Israel, dated to 12 000 BP, the remains of an elderly human and a four-to-five-month-old puppy were found buried together.[3] At another Natufian site at the cave of Hayonim, a man was found buried with two canids.[3] zgarbi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.212.157.197 (talk) 22:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I see that the article currently dates dog domestication earlier than this (between 17,000 and 14,000 BP) but does not cite a supporting source. The Natufian culture article, however, does support the 12,000 BP date with a cite of Clutton-Brock, Juliet (1995), "Origins of the dog: domestication and early history", in Serpell, James (ed.), The domestic dog: its evolution, behaviour and interactions with people (2003 reprinting ed.), Cambridge University Press, pp. 10–12. I have not changed the unsupported info in the article, but I believe that it would be OK to change the unsupported article info to the later cite-supported date, citing the supporting source. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

dogs were not demestacated they were here before human kind —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.186.133 (talk) 02:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know were you got that number, but in Germany, they found a skeleton of a domestic dog, that is, as far as I know 2000 years older. And that one is widely known.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 06:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Canadian references

This article not only uses American spelling. It lumps Canada in with the United States. In one sentences it lists countries starting with the U.K. this way: "U.K.,..., and US/Canada. It should say. "UK.,..., Canada, and the United States. (By the way Canadians have their own spellings, although we put up with American spelling when it's pushed on us. We are a Commonwealth country and are more comfortable with our own spellings or British spellings.) I've noticed Wikepedia articles lump Canada and the United States as some kind of monolithic North America (but ignore the fact that Mexico and the Caribbean countries also share this continent.) Canada and the United States are not the same in many respects. For instance, Mongrel is not necessarily a degrogratory term in Canada. It is used interchangeably with other terms, such as mutt. No offense intended to the animal. 137.186.177.84 (talk) 02:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm.... The article mentions Canada just once; in that sentence which says "US/Canada" — "Based on questionnaire surveys of owners in the UK, Denmark, and the USA/Canada, the median longevity of most dog breeds is between 10 and 13 years.", citing four supporting sources. The first three of the four sources provide info about the UK and Denmark; the fourth source, here, speaks of five separate data sources, which it names as follows:

1. Vet School Data 1980-1990
2. (UK) KC Survey 2004
3. British Owners 1999
4. Denmark KC Survey 2003
5. USA/Can. Single Breed Survey Averages

That fifth data source referred to as "USA/Can. Single Breed Survey Averages" turns out to be averages from several surveys which covered dogs located in the U.S. and in Canada, as further described on this page.

I don't think anyone set out to slight Canada or Canadians here.

Wikipedia:MOS#National_varieties_of_English says, "The English Wikipedia has no general preference for a major national variety of the language. No variety is more correct than the others." Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling) summarizes spelling differences between several national varieties of English. The Canadian Oxford Dictionary article says that Canadian spelling has features of both British and American spellings – colour, centre, and travelling, but tire, aluminum, and program.

As far as WP articles lumping the US and Canada together goes, (Hmmmm....) looking at the various North American countries and territories, I have the impression that the US and Canada are closer to one another in many ways than either of them are to any of the others (Yes, I would guess that the US is closer in many ways to Canada than it is to its own North American territories of The US Virgin Islands, Navassa Island (uninhabited), and Puerto Rico). -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting reference

Not sure where or if this could/should be included in the article, but I'll put it out there should anyone find any use for it: "As we were walking about, Madame de Montholon drove away a dog that had come near her.--'You do not like dogs, Madam?' said the Emperor.--'No, Sire.'--'If you do not like dogs, you do not like fidelity; you do not like those who are attached to you; and, therefore, you are not faithful.'--'But . . . but . . . ' said she--'But . . . but . . . ' repeated the Emperor, 'where is the error in my logic? Refute my arguments if you can!'" - Napoleon Bonaparte, The Opinions and Reflections of Napoleon, ed. Lewis Claflin Breed (Boston: The Four Seas Company, 1926), 387. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Man's best friend...but his logic can be refuted. She might just detest flees. I don't think it's relevant. Jalemo (talk) 10:08, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Eye color

I once visited a pet shop in the Philippines which had a white dog with some black spots. Its right eye was brown, whereas its left one was gray. Is this normal? Does this variation in eye color affect the dog's eyesight? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.107.52.18 (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I saw a blue eyed dog --222.238.92.177 (talk) 08:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)--222.238.92.177 (talk) 08:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It happens in a lot of mammals (it's called heterochromia), including humans. Not relevant to the article. Jalemo (talk) 10:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is everyone offended by the use of the word bitch?

Everytime I type in bitch someone deletes and types female. Why, bitch is the correct term for a female canid. I don't use bitch as an offensive word and I have never called a woman a bitch so I don't use it to offend anyone. It is the correct term for a female canid, so would everyone please stop being offended by it. I mean, when I watch the UK dog show they always use the word bitch to describe a female from a male. Everyone can take it offensively, but I will keep on using it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SoundBlast (talk • contribs) 18:22, 28 April 2008

actually, i've only seen the word applied for (some) canines, and almost exclusively by "enthusiasts"/breeders. female vulpines (and possibly other fox-like canids) are called "vixen", of course. - Metanoid (talk, email) 22:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

See Bitch, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bitch, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bitch, http://www.bartelby.com/68/58/858.html, etc. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, yes, i know the word "bitch" is in the dictionary; but this is an encyclopedia. why don't you go over to Dog or one of the many entries for domestic breeds, and then complain if you're censored? - Metanoid (talk, email) 22:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Metanoid, I was not complaining, I was commenting on a complaint by someone else who was bitchcomplaining about having been censored. Also, this is the talk page for Dog—the page you suggested that the complainer "go over to". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Note

just a quick note. reference number 59 states that jesus is quoted as calling non-hebrews dogs. This is incorrect as ANY casual reading of the referenced source will show. check it on http://www.blueletterbible.org/ using the cited passage Mark 7:24-30 using ANY version of the bible you like. At any rate, what is this doing in an article about dogs anyhow? totally irrelevant. Zuck (talk) 13:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree after reading the source. I've removed that sentence. Franamax (talk) 17:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah that is so not true ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 17:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone wrote "hellooo" in tne introductory paragraph. I can't edit because of the semiprotection status, but someone should take care of this tiny little nuisance.MosKillinest (talk) 00:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please Remember

Please remember that this is not a social network. That means do not say things like " email me if you know how to help" or "if you have options that could help with my problem fell free to call". The reader want to know about the object, in this case about dogs. They do not want to know about the stories of your dogs or what happend to your dog. Please provide accurate information aboput the subject you are talking about. Reminder- Children use this site for school,there has to be accurate information for them. If you do not know a lot about the subject then do not fix things and type things about it in the paragraphs. Wikipedia is being told not to be used in the schools because of its lack of accurate information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.21.14 (talk) 00:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with 24.63.21.14. This not the place to post things about your dog; millions of dogs are like that, and yes, saying things like, "e-mail me at_____" is not appropriate. People do not want to read what happened to a dog. They want real information; however, the answer could be hidden in a google search. Don't rely on wikipedia to help you woth such problems, as in repeated edits can get you blocked.

No regurgitating of food?

In the article, it was stated, that domestic dogs, do not regurgitate food for their young. This is certainly true in many cases, however, I wouldn't be so sure if that is really the norm since there have been documented cases where the bitches did it. I corrected this part of the article and referenced my sources. The sources are in german so I would be happy If somebody knew the english titles of the books.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 06:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Do dogs wash their faces like cats do?

I have a dog and I also have 2 cats; a friend noticed my dog grooming himself, and when my dog was washing his face, he thought that the dog had picked up this grooming trait from my cats. My dog licked one of his paws then washed his face with this paw. Is this normal dog grooming behaviour or has he adopted it from the cats? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.97.0 (talk) 02:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussions about the article itself. If you have any general questions, you should take it to our Reference Desk. Thank you! Paragon¹²³²¹ 05:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

South Orange County

In the portion about predation of Dogs, it should say, "South Orange County, California" for clarification. I live in Orange County, Florida, and believe it or not, coyotes are in Central Florida too. Jalemo (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Dog poison" request for improvement in details and cites

The cite only covers grapes, and there seems to be a lack of reliable references. Moreover having seen people worried over a drooped square of chocolate some context would be good:- "20 ounces of milk chocolate—or only two ounces of baking chocolate—can cause serious problems in a 10-pound dog." - basically a dog eating over 10% of its body weight in chocolate. (The same paragraph describes "pancreatitis, an inflammatory condition of the pancreas." - which in WP would I hope become "pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas).)"

Rich Farmbrough, 17:43 30 August 2008 (GMT).

I've edited that part of the article a bit, attempting to improve the cites. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Health

Neutering male dogs between 6 and 8 months of age reduces there chances of prostate cancer. Never in all my experience as a veterinary technician have I heard or seen neuterd males be more at risk for prostate cancer due to sterilization. 71.102.130.175 (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

World oldest dog dies

Here's a story link. I'm not a regular editor here and it looks like if I added it to External links it might not have survived. 5Q5 (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1053471/The-worlds-oldest-canine-dies-age-203-thats-dog-years.html

Consider changing the top picture

It's only personal opinion, but my first thought was that (even though on looking closer it doesn't look this way) the dog looks very aggressive, giving dogs a bad view.a dog is a mix Teancum (talk) 18:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Small (but big) number problem

.50]] (talk) 09:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Dog saliva

Isn't it true that dog saliva has curative properties? They're often seen licking their own wounds, and there are tales abound about people who let their dogs lick their wounds, which healed faster than you can say "Neosporin". If it is indeed true, it should be added to the entry. Whitereflection (talk) 21:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

• It's not. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC

heading

as i'm sure everyone has noticed the heading is completely nonsensical. Yosh76063 (talk) 00:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the article was vandalized. I have restored the article to a previous version. --Coaster1983 (talk) 00:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

More Ancient Dogs Discovered

The remains of dogs dating to 31,700 years ago found.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1078803/Mans-oldest-friend-Scientists-discover-grandad-modern-dogs--31-700-years-ago.html

Calypsoparakeet (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus for move.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Dog → Domestic dog — Rationale : Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). This page is page is about the Canis lupus familiaris and not just about the genus Canis. Mouse and House mouse are two different Wikipedia articles and the same should be with Dog and Domestic dog. Has anyone seen a scientific paper on the genetic of "dogs"? I haven't. It's either testing done on the Canis genus or only on the Canis lupus familiaries species.. Mieciu K (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC) — Mieciu K (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support for move. Mieciu K (talk) 19:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
  • nominator !vote Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

*Strong support- completely logical. It has my full support. Elucidate ^{(parlez à moi)} Ici pour humor 20:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Changed to oppose Dog is the most common name, and so complies with policy. Elucidate ^{(parlez à moi)} Ici pour humor 11:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. The nomination would be a logical reason to move the article on the genus to Canis, if it were not already there; but it is no reason to move dog away from the common meaning of the word. Our policy is to use common names in their common sense in English; English and Neo-Latin are not coterminous, which is one reason Neo-Latin is still in use. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I oppose your oppose vote per our Be precise when necessary policy, after all this is an encyclopedia, I see no need for unnecessary simplicfications. The Dog article would still be redirect to Domestic dog if this move request was accepted. Mieciu K (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support. The definitive and canonical listing of mammal species (and subspecies) calls this subspecies "domestic dog". I would give strong support to move this to Domestic Dog. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. Dog is a dog in Britannica, Encarta,Columbia.M0RD00R (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

National Geographic, University of Pennsylvania ,scientific paper on domestic dogs, no biologist or genetic scientist would use the term "dog" and "domestic dog" as synonyms.Mieciu K (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Those links do not challenge what is the universally accepted encyclopedic name. There is a consensus of all major encyclopedias and we should stick with encyclopedic standard. M0RD00R (talk) 21:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

And your links do not challange that scientists use the term "domestic dog". There is already a Simple English Wikipedia, there is no need to simplify this Wikipedia. Mieciu K (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Neither Brittanica, neither Encarta, neither Columbia Encyclopedia are Simple English encyclopedias, they are English encyclopedias, so is English Wikipedia. Encyclopedic standartd is obvious, there is no need for wheel reinvention. M0RD00R (talk) 22:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. "Domestic dog" is unclear; it may or may not include other dogs, such as the dingo. "Dog" is an absolutely unambiguous reference to all dogs (in English, anyway, and this is English Wikipedia) as opposed to wolves, foxes, etc. --Hafwyn (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
  • The article disagrees with you: "The term [dog] encompasses both feral and pet varieties and is also sometimes used to describe wild canids of other subspecies or species." The move would remove such ambiguity. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Why would you want feral dogs and subspecies removed from the topic of Dog? This is an incredibly silly waste of time. The more general term is the best one, the one the general reader (not scientists) will be looking for. Otherwise you are just promoting a lot of redirects for no reason. --Hafwyn (talk) 21:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - rather, the article should include a section on feral dogs. Franamax (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is long enough as it is. I'm trying to get it to GA status, and adding more information is going to make it just that little bit harder. A section on feral dogs will just use up space. Elucidate ^{(parlez à moi)} Ici pour humor 21:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

So adding information to an encyclopedia article is antithetical to your personal goals? Why is that of interest to me? Feral dogs are quite germane to the topic of dogs, and are discussed already in the article. Do you wish to instead create Pet dogs? Franamax (talk) 22:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

And to expand that a bit: dogs as a life form have been shaped by humans but exist independently of humans. Take away the humans and there will still be dogs, thus they don't exist as a subset of humanity, which is what the "(domestic)" label implies. The dog in general deserves treatment, with obvious weight towards breeds and domestic uses. Nevertheless, once they run away, they are able to maintain their own existence. Franamax (talk) 22:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Speculation: If people were to suddenly go extinct in most continents the domesticated dogs would go extinct in a matter of decades, as they would not stand a chance competing with wolves. Mieciu K (talk) 23:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant (and unlikely; a spaniel has a different ecological niche than a wolf, and a Rottweiler may well hybridize). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey, don't count those cute spaniels out, I'd wager they can hybridize with the best of 'em ;) Franamax (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - "Dog" is the universal vernacular name in English.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - Dog is clearly the the name most commonly used to refer to the topic of this article (the "domestic dog"). --Serge (talk) 20:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose; I don't think this would benefit the readers. Whydontyoucallme dantheman (talk) 21:29, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - I can't even think of any other kind of dog. Cat yes, there are lions and tigers, but dog??? I've heard of Dogg, though. 199.125.109.99 (talk) 15:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Dog should redirect, Domestic dog should include something likem {{otheruses4|the domestic dog}} and Dog (disambiguation) should disambiguate. a quick look at the Subspecies of Canis lupus article turned up Canis lupus dingo. A few other subspecies mentioned there are not specifically described as "Wolf", but I don't know whether or not the description "Dog" would apply in those cases. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose due to the overwhelming majority in terms of common usage of the term. I'm sorry, but precision and scientific accuracy take a backseat to most common names in article names. Shereth 16:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed, precision is only supposed to come into play when it's a necessity. --Serge (talk) 23:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Refs

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.