Talk:Crusades

Better public relations for Reconquista?

The Reconquista talks of an 800 year successful attempt to oust the trespassing Muslims from Iberia. Most of the other articles talk of Latin aggression against the poor innocent Muslims who had expropriated the Holy Land for themselves for 500-600 years or so prior to the (unsuccessful) attempt to oust them. I guess the winners do write history!  :)

neither the Turks nor the Arabs wrote much history. Who did write it included anti-Catholics (in Europe) who did not like popes esp in the Crusades. Rjensen (talk) 12:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Fourth council comments

Just wanted to mention that I made my changes before seeing Rjensen's. I now agree that it is WP:OR to tie this in retrospectively to criticism of the Crusades. Needs something more current. And the quote from Chalcedon should be omitted or imbedded in the reference. Doesn't seem germane. Student7 (talk) 12:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent re-edit does not properly reflect Kolbaba's work

I had added to the article under "Criticisms" the following

One aspect of the crusades was the formation of military religious orders. It shocked eastern Christian sensibilities I referenced Kolbaba, T. M., (2000), The Byzantine lists: errors of the Latins (University of Illinois) -Bishops and priests in battle p49ff.

This was removed with the reason

Kolbaba p 50 says it did NOT shock Eastern Emperors, -- & cites numerous Eastern priests & bishops in battle

Firstly note I didn't say it shocked the eastern emperors. I said it shocked eastern Christian sensibilities. This is backed up by the fact it was including in lists of 'errors' given by Orthodox about the Latins (as found in the work I cited).

The second part of the reason is misinformation. It does indeed cite instances of eastern priests and bishops who fought. It also notes what happened to them, if they were found out. One example of this ...it says (page 50) "Demetrius Chomatianos...rules that a deacon who fought to defend the walls of his town and killed many of the enemy with his arrows should be defrocked."

I made no comment on whether large numbers of priests in immediate danger took up arms or not - and thus a degree of hypocrisy is at work in making such complaints. However I have evidenced that they were made against the Latins, and that this conforms with canon law (which I also cited).

If someone wishes to say "Orthodox didn't act according to their own ideals" that would be true, but the ideal is different from the Latins. Montalban (talk) 13:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

It is one thing to be hypocritical in a teaching (to forbid arms to priests but to turn a blind eye to them); it is an altogether different thing to condone or to propose it as a positive teaching. This seems to be the case here. The note and citation should remain. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:01, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Laurel for your comments. I agree as I think that there's a vast difference between individual Orthodox clerics who took up arms and were not supported under canon law for doing so and the western idea of actually institutionalising and sanctifying it as a practice.

I've been struggling to find evidence of eastern military orders - although it would go against my point I feel it best to have as much information as possible - regardless of whether it supports my point - the best I've found is a guard of the Holy Sephulcre, but have not found that they are also a religious order.

Montalban (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Kolbaba clearly says there was no common Eastern view on the matter. The emperor disagreed with the Patriarch--and the Emperor called on the pop for help. As for Chalcedon, the Armenian Church repudiated it--and the Armenians were as Christian and as eastern as the Byzantines. Kolbaba sais it was regionalism--in the capital they did not like fighting bishops but the reverse was true out on the frontier where they did fight (p 51). Kolbaba lists many trivial complaints--the Byz lists complained that western monks ate pork and bishops wore rings. This is all rhetoric, Kolbab explains, and does not reflect widespread eastern sensibilities. Rjensen (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The fact it was included in several lists of errors shows that it shocked them. The whole purpose of the lists, if you read all of the book and not cherry-pick is that they are in effect to say "Look at what they get up to!"

As to 'common view' this only works if you ignore 'canon law'. I again accept that there's a difference between the ideal and what some practice

Page 50 refers to the reaction of a request by the Emperor to grant soldiers killed in battle the status of martyrs

From the book "The Patriarch and synod apparently responded with horrified rejection."

I mentioned above a difference between what some practiced and what was the ideal. This is a far cry from the West that sanctified such as martyrs. Thus on page 193 we see this complaint not once, but on 8 different lists of errors

Montalban (talk) 01:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Why not have it shocked 'some'. However rather than do this you've three times edited out EVERYTHING I had, including that it went against canon law - which was also referenced. I don't know why, if you objected (first to a 'lack of citation') of one point you'd remove all of it - even the bit that was cited from the very start.

Montalban (talk) 01:41, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

A problem (to me) is any council - they have a laundry list of stuff they agreed upon. But the early councils themselves were often convened for one purpose. Chalcedon is not noted for the proscriptions against fighting monks. And who knows how often or who enforced this or when. The council was mainly about whether Christ had one or two natures. And various factions railroaded through a "list of stuff."

And if you appear to be the victim, naturally, you are going to be "shocked", shocked at the other sides having violated something which may never have been enforced in the first place. Maybe instead of saying "shocked", it might be more accurately stated that "X stated that he was shocked at.." Student7 (talk) 16:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not against the statement that 'some' were shocked. I appreciate the emperors weren't. Certainly the church heirachs were.

However what got my goat was having the stuff I wrote edited out several times without any discussion on it... even when at first part of it was referenced. I cited the Council and even that was removed.

Montalban (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I dropped a long quote from the Council of Chalcedon a half millennium earlier. That's trivia when it comes to the crusades (it's like theologians quoting the Bible at each other). More interesting--and missing--is the whole relationship of the eastern Church to the Crusades. Did it condemn them or tolerate them or what--? Rjensen (talk) 13:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that canons of the church, made at an Ecumenical Council are trivial? Is there like a list of trivial and non-trivial canons? The eastern Orthodox church is divided from the western just on the west's addition of a single word (single in Latin) to a canonical statement of faith. See:

filioque

You also edited out a criticism on the fourth crusade. It would be helpful if you discuss this first, however, I've re-written it, and edited it into the article again

Anyway, sounds like you have an interesting research project on the Eastern Church and the Crusades. You might want to look for their support for the fourth crusade. Montalban (talk) 13:45, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes I do have evidence they are trivial with respect to the crusades. Fact is the West and East disagreed on the matter--and there was disagreement inside the East as well. Kolbaba gives them the same importance as eating pork and wearing rings. The article is about the Crusades, and a quote form 600 years earlier --and one repudiated by the Emperor and many Eastern priests--certainly is misleading. Is that ALL the Byz church had to say about the crusades? they come across looking petty and stupid by including that trivia -- and just who are they talking about, anyone in particular? The Knights Templar--the Knights Hospitaller or maybe the Teutonic Knights? I suspect the Byz never said because they were repeating rote formulas to emphasize the growing distance between East and West. Theologians do that sort of thing but it's not encyclopedic when talking about the crusades themselves. Kolbaba makes clear there was a fight between church and state [Patriarch & Emperor] and that is what is interesting. What we must avoid is any tone of wiki criticism of the crusades, or taking the side of the Greeks against the Latins, or the Turks against the Greeks, or whatever. That is POV and not allowed. Rjensen (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

1) I don't recall Kolbaba calling that criticism trivial. What might appear to you trivial would in fact be a POV. This error appears in 8 different lists. That is that eight compilers of the list thought it important. Whether you do or not is irrelevant to it being a complaint by the Byzantines, and thus a criticism.

For example... "A religion mandates that its followers do certain things in their everyday lives, encourages its followers in certain ritual actions. Seen in this context, complaints about differences in dress or ritual action are religious complaints. To say that such matters are trivial reflects a very modern and intellectual bias" Kolbaba, p3. I do not say that Kolbaba calls any complaints trivial, but I'm not aware that this particular one is deemed such. Kolbaba clearly notes that some people today might see some as trivial.

2) the fact the rule was 600 years earlier is another POV (that the space in time makes the rule irrelevant)

3) you're asking me if that's all they had to say, the article is not about proving that they had more to say, but that they leveled this criticism - and they did.

4) The crusaders themselves ideally wouldn't have gone to war against fellow Christians. That they didn't shows that difference between ideas and actions occurred. However that doesn't mean that one can't be criticised for not meeting a standard.

Simply put... The section is about criticisms. I've evidenced a criticism. Montalban (talk)

Trivial canons: The problem is that canon law was not codified (in the Catholic Church) until the 20th century. The list "just grew." It is unlikely that very many scholars were aware of all canons and their effect at any one time, until they were codified. There were ecclesiastical courts and "decisions" that would go into their interpretation.

Can you quote any statute from memory from 500 years ago? There is no reason to believe that they could THEN either! Few books. No way to reference them since pages were all different in the hand-copied volumes. Note that I cannot go to an index nor "google" in the 11th century. I can't easily find "all canons referring to military clergy!" I have to depend on some bookish guy whom I probably don't half trust. What if there was a canon later, or ecclesiastical court decision that vitiated it? There are few laws enforced in the US older than a century. They haven't been repealed, just forgotten. And the reason for their passage, unless vital, forgotten as well. Or not understood or not relevant to the current age.

While there may be no "trivial" canons, there were "forgotten" ones. More than just that one, doubtless. Like all statutes, constructed for some forgotten purpose, then itself forgotten until the 20th century.

(Again did this without reading Rjensen's comment above, which perhaps says the same thing). Student7 (talk) 20:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Criticisms

In the 'criticisms of the crusade' section is a number of points a) military orders used by the west shocked some easterners. (The biographer of emperor Alexios I Komnenos is noted by Kolbaba as being shocked by this (p.50))

b) the crusaders went back on previous agreements

c) that the fourth crusade, attacking another Christian state changed the direction of the crusader movement.

In what was called a 'slight re-write' b) was removed even though that editor had previously left it in. No reason for its removal was given.

I hope this isn't getting into an editing war, but the section is about criticisms. If they're properly sourced then I don't think that it should matter if someone personally feels that they're trivial criticisms. Montalban (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I've been following the above arguments about criticism of the military orders, and I should point out that there was also criticism of the orders in the west. There was criticism of the entire idea of crusading in the west, much more so than there was in the east. It does seem a little trivial to focus on what the Byzantines thought. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:22, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I would like to see that criticism added. For my part I only have evidence of what the east thought, which is why I added that. I am aware of western criticism but I have no references

It seems to me that one of the objections is that the criticism is partisan. The comment of taking the side of Greeks -v- Latins was raised. It struck me as odd given that there's Islamic criticism there in the article too. Ibn Jubayr is cited in the criticism area. I don't understand how a Greek writer is partisan, but a Moslem one is not. However his comments are not critical talking of the justice of the Franks - so I don't know why his comments are there. Nor why the comment about Francis of Assisi is there either.

Montalban (talk) 23:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

There's usually some discussion of western criticisms in the general histories, but there is also a specific study, "Criticism of Crusading, 1095-1274", by Elizabeth Sibbery. I don't know if she deals with Byzantine criticism, though. Kolbaba's book is good, but I think Byzantine criticism is not really about "the crusades", but about Latins in general (and specific things they did which were detrimental to the Empire, whether they happened to be part of a crusade or not). If we focus on Byzantine criticism, shouldn't we also have a section for western criticism of Byzantium? There was certainly a lot of it. But in both cases, the criticism is tangential to the subject of the crusades. (And you're right, I don't know what Ibn Jubayr and Francis of Assisi are doing in that section either. The whole section is a mess...actually the whole article has always been pretty useless, but oh well.) Adam Bishop (talk) 15:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree in part that the Kolbaba book is about Western errors in general, however this one is relative to the crusades, thus I give it there, and only that one criticism. The easterners would only have experienced 'military clerical orders' because of the crusades. Thus in a section about criticisms of the crusade I give this criticism Montalban (talk) 23:40, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Thomas Asbridge,

As a source he seems to think that the Crusades came out of nowhere but the thought of Pope Urban Montalban (talk) 00:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

It's difficult to understand an historian who makes major over-sights like believing that there was no conflicts between Islam and the west, and thus missing the massive battle of Manzikert

Montalban (talk) 00:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

All four of Asbridge's books on the crusades have been well received by scholars. 1) Eg the latest book: "What is certain is that no medieval historian alive today tells a better battle tale than Asbridge....Asbridge's reconstructions of strategy and of the intentions and impulses of generals are always convincing....he is at his most scintillating when describing the Third Crusade." (Jay Rubenstein in Historically Speaking April 2011); 2) on The First Crusade: "The main text provides a clear and well written account into which elements of analysis have been very carefully integrated....Asbridge's book is founded, to a much greater degree [than other surveys], on a fine knowledge of recent scholarship....overall, this is a clear, well written, and learned introduction to the First Crusade." [France in Catholic Historical Review(2005) 517]. Rjensen (talk) 02:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Except for his massive oversights (such as Manzikert), they are well written Montalban (talk) 09:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

No crusaders were involved at Manzikert. First the Greeks got it by defeating the Armenians and in turn were defeated by the Turks. Rjensen (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe I said that he said that there were crusaders at Manzikert. His premise is that the 1st Crusades simply popped out of the Pope's head in an environment where (aside from Spain) there had been 100 years of so of relative peace between Christians and Moslems - completely ignoring the fact that just 20 years prior to the 1st crusade was the massive battle of Manzikert. Montalban (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

That's not exactly Asbridge's premise...he certainly recognizes events such as Manzikert, and that there is actually some debate about its importance, but he is arguing that the concept of a "crusade" was new, created by Urban and used as a political tool by him. (This seems to have gone totally over the heads of everyone writing about Asbridge, Manzikert, or the crusades on Wikipedia, especially in the First Crusade article...) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Asbridge of course does analyze the battle of Manzikert. In The Crusades (2010) p 27 he says: "In 1071, the Seljuqs crushed an imperial army at the Battle of Manzikert (in eastern Asia Minor), and though historians no longer consider this to have been an utterly cataclysmic reversal for the Greeks, it still was a stinging setback." In The first crusade p 356 he provides additional historiography, such as the important articles by Cahen, "La campagne de Mantizikert d'apres les sources musulmans," and Angold, "The Byzantine state on the eve of the battle." Rjensen (talk) 15:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. One important point is that Manzikert was not a battle between "Christendom" and "Islam", but rather a battle between the Seljuk Turks and the Byzantine Empire. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Then the battles in the Iberian Pen. weren't against "Christendom" either. That's a problem with his selective appraisal of the then current state of play between the opponents Montalban (talk) 23:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

No, they weren't, but I'm not sure what that has to do with Asbridge. But both the Reconquista and the wars against the Seljuks were reinterpreted as wars between Islam and Christendom, which is part of the reason the idea of a "crusade" was so novel. People in Spain didn't seem to think of it like that, which is why Urban and other popes had to specifically tell them to stay behind. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:17, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

That's not the point. The point is that Asbridge is saying that (excepting for Iberia) there was a century or more of peace, and there wasn't - given Manzikert happened. That's not even including the war in Sicily. The idea of a 'holy war' might itself have been novel, but the idea of war between Christian nations and Islamic ones was not. There was war between Georgia (under Bagrat and, King David IV et al) and Islam. The Seljuks under Alp Arslan had attacked Armenia. If he wanted to reconstruct this to say that "Asides from Iberia, Sicily, and the eastern Christian nations there was relative peace until the Pope thought up the novel idea of holy (Christian) war" (because 'holy war' was not novel to Islam), then he'd have a point, albeit a convoluted one. That's the worth of his text as history He might as well have just said that it was a new thing to Christianity; Holy War. Montalban (talk) 03:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Montalban would be more convincing if a) he actually quotes Professor Asbridge saying any of these things (instead of making up fake quotes) and b) tell us what more reliable source he is depending upon for his views. Rjensen (talk) 03:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Fake quotes? Montalban (talk) 04:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

yes -- go up a dozen or so lines and Montalban wrote this: a) fake quote = Asides from Iberia, Sicily, and the eastern Christian nations there was relative peace until the Pope thought up the novel idea of holy (Christian) war" go up a bit more and get b) fake paraphrase = " Asbridge is saying that (excepting for Iberia) there was a century or more of peace, and there wasn't.". And again, which RS is Montalban using??? Rjensen (talk) 04:45, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Check out the leading If

In grammar, conditional sentences are sentences discussing factual implications or hypothetical situations and their consequences.

Conditional Clause

Montalban (talk) 06:53, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Oops! Forgot this...

The sentence Asbridge is saying that... is not in quote marks. If it were a paraphrase, I'm not sure how it would also be a quote???

Montalban (talk) 06:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok try this grammar for size: "If editor X wanted to get it right and make a useful contribution he would use exact quotes from real scholars and not make up imaginary statements that never existed outside his imagination." Rjensen (talk) 22:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a pity that Asbridge seems to think that there was relative peace before the Crusades. I accept that he calls it a 'new' history, and in the context of protests against the Gulf War (II) it has some currency amongst readers and intellectuals alike. Aside from him missing important facts it's worth every cent Montalban (talk) 23:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The First Crusader

John Julius Norwich referred to the Roman emperor Heraclius as the first Crusader. I was wondering who else might claim this title. Montalban (talk) 07:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Constantine's conversion to Christianity

Constantine did not convert to Christianity in AD 313. He is believed to be baptized on his death bed by an Arian bishop. So it is more accurate to say that he converted to a Christian heresy - Arianism - in the year of his death. In AD 313, the Edict of Milan was promulgated to legalize the religion of Christianity and marked an official end of the Diocletianic Persecution.

Has this some relevance to the Crusades???

Montalban (talk) 11:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Winston

Winston has now beat his european history teacher and has now one $5