Talk:Cat Stevens

Untitled

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (July 2004 to October 2005)
• Archive 2 (Fall 2005 to December 2007)
• Archive 3 (2008)

Photos

Hey, I got busy and there is now a photo with an indisputable license, of Cat Stevens-- still needs resizing from someone to fit the infobox better. There's also one of Yusuf Islam coming in the next couple of days (inshallah!) but I have faith it'll be OK, plus another really nice Yusuf shot I haven't asked for. Takes hours just to tell people to change a couple of copyright icons.. sheesh. I thought I didn't get it. Fortunately, this man who owns this photo is OK. --leahtwosaints (talk) 12:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Salman Rushdie section

I have removed portions of the section on Salman Rushdie. In particular, I removed the statement "his comments have left an indelible impression on his reputation as a man of peace." I did so for the following reasons: 1) The statement is an opinion and does not represent a NPOV; 2) The citation was from a Chicago Tribune article that does not mention the Rushdie incident at all; 3) Immediately following the 1989 incident, and in the 20 years since, he has vehemently denied ever calling for the death of Rushdie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfall999 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you have edited out too much. Where is the exact statement that Stevens made re Rushdie? When I saw him comment, maybe he wasn't calling for Rushdie's death but there was no doubt he wanted Rushdie's writing to be prohibited, one way or another. Also if I recall, he himself stated later on that he was under certain influences at that time, which have changed.Ykral (talk) 11:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Rename Page to Yusaf Islam

This wikipedia page is titled "Cat Stevens" which is not either his real name or, in many years, his chosen name. It seems to reflect a preference that is less objective than nostalgic. While Cat Stevens should lead people to this page and the body should note he is perhaps best known as Cat Stevens, the title should be his name, which is Yusaf Islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.90.25 (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree! If no one want that, lets have his real name with Yusuf Islam and cat stevens redirecting to it. --86.167.87.176 (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:NAME for the guiding official policy on these types of decisions. This has been discussed on this talk page at great length in the past (see the archives), and the consensus has been that his greatest fame came from his time as Cat Stevens, and that this name is the one he is most commonly known as. Our conclusion has been that most people looking for this article will search for "Cat Stevens", so it should be the name of the article. Of course those who search for "Yusuf Islam" will be instantly directed here. Thanks. Tvoz/talk 19:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer a change to Yusuf Islam (even if his greatest fame is as Stevens, his greatest notability is as Yusuf), but I don't think it's likely at the moment. Andjam (talk) 11:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Not at all clear that his greatest notability is as Yusuf. Most commonly used name is the standard for naming here. Tvoz/talk 05:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

In the music world he clearly became famous through being Cat Stevens, but outside the music world, and among the 1 billion Muslim's of the world, he became famous for his conversion FROM Cat Stevens to Yusuf Islam and his activities as Yusuf Islam (For example, ending up on the no-fly list). Furthermore, I think its a stretch to say that most people searching for this article do so on the basis of his music. We have no way of knowing this and although I would say most people searching for this article do so in relation to his religion, neither mine nor your assumptions can be judged as any more valid.99.236.250.221 (talk) 02:37, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there any kind of simple statistics tool on Wikipedia, such as search frequency, and link frequency? I myself searched for Yusuf Islam to get here, and think the page should reflect the actual world, but if Cat Stevens is searched much more than Yusuf Islam the opposite would be more practical. Flipping Mackerel (talk) 15:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is a Grokster hit counter. Without doubt, in the English Wikipedia, Cat Stevens does get more hits than Yusuf Islam, or his newest moniker, "Yusuf". However, though he goes now by his newest preferred name of Yusuf, but --as he says, he is comfortable with Cat Stevens since he himself recognizes that within the music world, people still associate him more with that name.. I myself am Muslim, and those who view him only as an Islamic philanthropist (which is our deen, after all-- our calling and way of life), I feel OK with it remaining as it is right now: Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens. Those who have little interest in his Western music (or any of his music at all) would probably be less inclined to look him up for his educational work, anyway. The Islamic music and spoken word is only partly in English. Much is in Arabic.--Leahtwosaints (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Ambiguous statement

"Producer Paul Samwell-Smith paired guitarist Alun Davies with Stevens, whom he initially met as a session musician" - I can't work out from this statement which of them was the session musician: can someone who knows have a stab at rewording the sentence to simplify it? Dom Kaos (talk) 21:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Do others feel this way? The article is about Cat Stevens and he had just chosen a new producer, who paired up Alun Davies, to do session work for Stevens. But, as the next few lines show, though it was to be only for one album, the two got along well enough, that Davies remained throughout not just that career, but also his current one. I can change it if it's too confusing the way it is in the text, but Davies isn't frequently discussed here, so I think it's obvious who the session musician was. Well, here, I'll edit it a bit. --leahtwosaints (talk) 15:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

It is clearer now. Tvoz/talk 05:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Name (again!)

I've done a bit of a wikignome tidy-up, and come across a bit of an issue: before I set to work, the names "Yusuf", "Islam" and "Yusuf Islam" were featured in a pretty haphazard manner, and it really needed some kind of standardisation. If he were called "Joe Bloggs", I would have simply changed all incidents to "Bloggs" - but as he prefers to go by just his first name, and as he shares his last name with a religion which is mentioned several times, this could lead to some confusion for readers (e.g. in the sentence "no right-thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action"): so I've standardised it to "Yusuf" instead. I concede that it's a less-than-perfect way of doing it (and I'm well aware of the archived discussions regarding his name) but at least the way I've done it, it's easy for readers to differentiate between the mentions of his name and mentions of the religion to which he belongs Dom Kaos (talk) 22:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with this edit - I think the need to differentiate between the name and the religion has always been an issue, and there is no perfect solution. I agree that using "Yusuf" for him after 1978, especially since he now uses that as his name, is reasonable. Tvoz/talk 05:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for editing first and commenting later, but I just saw this discussion. Last names are used across the board in Wiki, using someone’s first name because his surname happens to also be a religion seems somewhat arbitrary. For example, Terry Christian is referred to as Christian in the respective article... Rastapopoulos (talk) 13:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - I get your point, but Terry Christian presumably does not go by the single name "Terry", and the usage of "Christian" doesn't lead to confusion in that article as it has in this one - this is a different situation, where his religion and the conversion to it, and his name changes, are integral parts of the story. As discussed before, referring to him as Yusuf is reasonable given the fact that he is known by the single name (like Prince), and since there is potential confusion between conversion to Islam and name change to Islam. I'm putting it back to long standing wording. Tvoz/talk 07:28, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the page is very well done. But with regard to the name issue, it appears he has changed his name yet again, at least for professional reasons, using the single moniker "Yusuf" on his new album, website, etc. Perhaps there should be a paragraph explaining this switch to the single name, and after that, you can correctly refer to him as "Yusuf", otherwise it sounds too informal (would a page about President Obama say things like "Then Barack went to Havard..."?). I am personally curious as to why he dropped "Islam" from his professional name, but I cannot find any souces as to why he made the switch. Joe Patent (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC).

There is a reference to his switch to single name in the article already - no more is needed unless there are reliable sources that discuss his reasoning behind the change, etc. Tvoz/talk 18:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't we

have to write his names in Arabic and Greek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.24.224 (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

No. - this has been discussed before. He is English, and so his name is rendered in English. Tvoz/talk 05:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Not sure where to fit this?

I found this list of the 100 Greatest Songwriters Living, here: [1] but don't know where in the text it would fit. I'm not feeling well so thought I'd drop it here. --leahtwosaints (talk) 15:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Changed music awards to music awards & recognition and added this. Tvoz/talk 05:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Roadsinger section

This section of Roadsinger: Both Colbert and Fallon stated that they were Cat Stevens fans, complimenting the singer on his new album and inviting him to appear again on their shows. On May 24 he appeared on the BBC's The Andrew Marr Show, where he was interviewed and performed the title track of Roadsinger. Doesn't it sound too close to POV? We don't normally mention how the hosts of late night shows respond to their guests. I imagine they'd be almost required to tell the guests to please come back, et cetera. Am I the only one who feels this way? --leahtwosaints (talk) 04:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I removed the comment about Fallon and Colbert because it was not sourced - if there's an article that discusses this, it could be ok to reinstate. Tvoz/talk 05:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

sic

"This issue of music in Islam is not as cut-and-dried as I was led to believe ... I relied on heresy [sic]"

Explain to me why this sentence contains [sic]. There doesn't appears to be any original mistakes in Yusuf's quote.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.176.22 (talk • contribs)

This is explained in footnote 70: "Note that some online sources render this word as "hearsay" but the official copy from The Globe and Mail online archives says 'heresy'." Tvoz/talk 06:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone is wondering, heresy and hearsay are unrelated concepts. The first is unapproved changes to religious belief, and the second is a legal term (referring to someone hearing another person say something, as opposed to witnessing it themselves). Andjam (talk) 13:44, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely - which is why the discrepancy in the two is relevant to note. Saying his position was based on heresy is quite different from saying it was based on hearsay, and I don't think we're in a position to know which he meant. Tvoz/talk 16:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

New link?

Found this: [2] My computer's down or I'd try to do something with it. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 21:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Cat Stevens/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

As part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles' Project quality task force ("GA Sweeps"), all old good articles are being re-reviewed to ensure that they meet current good article criteria (as detailed at WP:WIAGA.) I have determined that this article needs some work to meet current criteria, outlined below:

• The lead needs some sprucing up, as it doesn't currently meet requirements of summarizing the entire article; it dwells too long on his conversion to Islam and awards, and not enough on his biography and career path. (WP:LEAD)
• There are many instances throughout the article of one or two-sentence groupings all by themselves. These are not true paragraphs (which by definition need three or more sentences as a bare minimum) and so these need to be cut, merged into other paragraphs or combined to form them, or else expanded. Ex in the lead are "He currently lives with his wife and children in London, and spends part of each year in Dubai.[4]" and "His newest album, Roadsinger, was released on 5 May 2009."
• The sourcing and references of the article need to be checked. At the very least, there are many trailing sentences to paragraphs that are unsourced. Some examples:
  • "His parents divorced when he was about 8 years old, but they continued to maintain the family restaurant and live above it."
  • ""I'm Gonna Get Me a Gun" reached Britain's Top 10, and the album Matthew and Son itself began charting. The original version of the The Tremeloes cover hit, "Here Comes My Baby", was written and recorded by Stevens" and the following paragraph.
  • "He recorded on all but two of the succeeding pop music albums Stevens released, and continued performing and recording with him until Stevens' retirement. The two remained friends, however, and years later, when Stevens re-emerged as Yusuf Islam after 27 years, Davies appeared again performing at his side, and has remained there."
  • "In addition, the song, "Pop Star", about his experience as a teen star, and "Katmandu", featuring Genesis frontman Peter Gabriel playing flute, were featured. Mona Bone Jakon was an early example of the solo singer-songwriter album format that was becoming popular for other artists as well."
  • The majority of "#Later Cat Stevens recordings"
  • " Stevens took to it right away, and began to find peace with himself and began his transition to Islam."
  • "Stevens had been seeking inner peace and spiritual answers throughout his career, and now believed he had found what he had been seeking."
  • et al
• Non-free content: there is no substantial critical commentary in the article that justifies the extensive use of song clips—namely, File:Catfirstcut.ogg, File:Cattrouble.ogg, File:Catwildworld.ogg, File:Catfatherandson.ogg, File:Catpeacetrainlive.ogg, File:Catlater.ogg, File:Catseethelightnew.ogg, File:Cattalaaalbadrualayna.ogg, File:Cataisforallah.ogg, etc. Furthermore, many do not have fair use rationales written specifically for this article, or else have rationales for another article, but not this one. Unless information regarding the composition of these songs, reception to illustrated parts, et al is added, they should be removed (WP:NFCC, WP:IUP)
• I'm concerned about the recent news and Muslim activities bias of the article. Everything before it gets around 25 paragraphs (counting the single sentence quasiparagraphs.) Everything at the Muslim conversion section and after is about twice as long (46 paragraphs). I think more info could be added to his early career, and some of the more detailed information about recent albums moved to the respective subarticles, or cut if it already appears there.

I am placing the article on hold for seven days (longer if considerable work is done to address the above issues.) Please keep me appraised on this page. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 17:50, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

As no progress has been made towards the above, I am delisting the article. It may be renominated at WP:GAN at any time, however I stress addressing the above issues. If you have questions on any of the above, please use my talk page. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title Change

Shouldn't the title be 'Yusuf Islam' since that is his legal name.............

He's best known by his stage name not his real name, keep existing title to article. Momo san ^Gespräch 03:02, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't it be redirected to Yusuf Islam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.218.117.174 (talk) 23:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Generally articles are titled by what their most common name in English would be (see WP:ENGLISH, which states: "Use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language as the title of the article"). While he is becoming increasingly more known as Yusuf, I think it's pretty clear that most people would know him as Cat Stevens, which is why the article is titled as it is. Best, Cocytus [»talk«] 02:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times - see archives. Momo san and Cocytus have it exactly right. Tvoz/talk 07:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

On what authority are you claiming that his most common name in English as Cat Stevens? Within the article itself, I have not seen a single source to support the claim that he is best known as Cat Stevens rather than Yusuf Islam. Unless there are any sources to support this claim, I don't see any reason why the article should be titled "Cat Stevens" instead of his current name "Yusuf Islam". Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 07:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Although Google searches are not necessarily the most reliable method of determining this, here are some stats: there are over a million more Google hits on a simple search for "Cat Stevens" than on "Yusuf Islam", but many of them overlap - include both names - so, more importantly, if you do a boolean-type search on all cites that include Cat Stevens but do not include Yusuf Islam, you'll get over 2 million hits, while a similar search on all cites that include Yusuf Islam but do not include Cat Stevens you get only 400,000. Clearly Cat Stevens is the most commonly used name, our standard for article titles. Even in his own literature, interviews, website, and record covers put out during the years he has been known by the name Yusuf Islam, he includes reference to the name Cat Stevens, as the recognizable name. His commercial success and fortune almost entirely derive from the Cat Stevens days. The millions of records sold were sold under that name. The archives of this page go over this a number of times - there may or may not be a source that specifies that it is the more common name, but it clearly is. I can live with "commonly" rather than "best known" although I think it's nitpicking - he is best known as Cat Stevens. But I do not agree with any suggestion of changing the title of the article. It is, of course, accessible as a redirect if one looks for "Yusuf Islam" here. Tvoz/talk 08:21, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Tvoz and past discussions, no article name change is warranted. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Too long?

This article seems much longer than the overall importance of the subject would warrant. 173.16.252.154 (talk) 22:21, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion of the importance of the subject is not really relevant. The article is a bit long, but not egregiously so, according to guidelines regarding readable prose. Tvoz/talk 07:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is too long, lots of the sections could be combined first of all. This page looks like a fan news site, following him on the most recent events, etc. Lots of unnecessary information could be cut. Cat Stevens is not Winston Churchill or Mozart, someone needs to reorganize this article neurally... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 19:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

First, one does not have to be Mozart or Churchill to have a long article - this is just your opinion, and it really doesn't work that way. Once again, as said right above and many other times, "The article is a bit long, but not egregiously so, according to guidelines regarding readable prose." Perhaps some material could be consolidated or cut, but the organization is certainly logical as it is set up. I assume you meant "neutrally" not "neurally" - nothing un-neutral in its organization either. Tvoz/talk 21:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is not too long. Stevens/Islam has had a long career with musical ups and downs, political controversy, a name change, etc. Thus a comprehensive article on him will be on the lengthy side. And comparison of article lengths across subjects never works in WP; you'd quickly conclude that The Simpsons is the most important thing in the universe and go insane.... Wasted Time R (talk) 03:59, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Removed a photo that was not acceptable, added a new one

I placed the newer photo- I think it's better than the one I just removed. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

New sources of references for text

New sources of references for text-- please use:

• Bill DeYoung's Liner Notes from the Cat Stevens Box Set with comments from the artist about each song --Leahtwosaints (talk) 03:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this explanation really necessary?

Romanization of Arabic names can easily result in different spellings: the transliteration of the Islamic name for Joseph (Yusuf's chosen name) lists a dozen spellings.

Are we assuming that our readers are of too simplistic intellegence to understand that mispellings of names or words can cause unwarranted results within govermental agencies, as Steven's (possibly) presumes U.S. officials have done? Wolfpeaceful 165.138.95.59 (talk) 16:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

If the sentence actually did just say "spelling mistakes can cause unwarranted results", then yes, this would be redundant given the rest of the paragraph. I don't think we're stating the obvious to mention that the mistake was a result of inconsistent Romanization (rather than a simple typo or printing error), though. --McGeddon (talk) 17:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand the difference. Thanks. Wolfpeaceful 165.138.95.59 (talk) 18:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

"deportation"

This man was never "deported" from the U.S. he was found Inadmissible under section §212(a)(3)(B)(i) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). I've rewritten this section and references to him being "deported" accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.147.251 (talk) 21:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Rushdie redux

There has been a lot of discussion about this section in the past and the long-standing conclusion that was reached and reaffirmed was that adding too much detail here in the main article would give this matter more weight than was appropriate in the context of this biography, so the separate stand-alone article was created to address the totality of that matter. If we put in details here on the side of the allegations, we have to balance it with details on the side of his denials, as is proper for a BLP, and there was too much material to do that and keep this article of a reasonable size. The forked article Cat Stevens comments about Salman Rushdie has the space to go into the details on all sides of the matter, and it does. This is a summary section here, and there is a prominent link to the stand-alone article for people to read more about it. You can see this in the talk page archives linked above - see archive 2, for example. I've returned the text to the way it was, but I will also check the question that was raised about an incorrect reference and will fix that if so. Of course, discussion is always appropriate, but please do it here, rather than edit warring. Tvoz/talk 17:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

See also Talk:Cat Stevens' comments about Salman Rushdie#NPOV and its subsections for a lengthy discussion on why the section in this main article should remain a short summary. Tvoz/talk 19:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

section of law

why does the section of law used to deny his entry continue to get deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.147.251 (talk) 21:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Because even though it may be true, it amounts to original research which is not allowed - the section of immigration law is not mentioned in the source articles that are cited. Please see WP:Verifiablity - this is a core principle of Wikipedia. Tvoz/talk 04:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

he was refused base on possible ties to terrorism. That is the section of law that governs that type of refusal. It's a public law. How is that original research? It stands. look here...

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.f6da51a2342135be7e9d7a10e0dc91a0/?vgnextoid=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&CH=act

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.81.81 (talk) 06:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC) 

illegal entry into the us?

Can someone please perhaps provide some recent info about Cat regarding his place of residence? It has been said that he is on the US no fly list which raises concern about how he attended this recent political event hosted by Jon Stewart and Colbert.

Can't really verify he is on the list since the list isn't made public however given his resume` it sounds about rightWoods01 (talk) 01:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

As the article mentions, he has entered the US several times since that incident - it would seem there was an error made regarding whether he should have been on that no-fly list in the first place, or he wouldn't not have been admitted subsequently. But please understand, this is an encyclopedia article about an artist, and we are not a primary source as we rely on other sources for our information which you can check yourself. Tvoz/talk 04:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)