Category talk:Early Jewish Christians

Purpose of category

What on Earth does this category mean? If it means "Early converts from Judaism to Christianity" then say so, although even then you run into problems with how you define "early". Most people in this category would not have been Hebrew native speakers. We do not know what their knowledge of Hebrew would have been, and all sorts of people down the years have had some scholarly knowlege of Hebrew. PatGallacher (talk) 00:17, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Paul was an early convert from Judaism to Christianity, but the above is not a suitable title for the category, since many other early followers of Jesus may not have regarded themselves as having converted. The category is for first century Christians from a Jewish background.

Although there is an article on Jewish Christians, there were very strong views against using this term in a category at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 February 13#Category:Jewish Christians.

That CFD also included support for proposals to start a category for early Jewish Christians. In view of the above-mentioned views I proposed the category title "early Hebrew Christians", following the New Testament use of the term "Hebrews" as opposed to the "Hellenists" in Acts 6:1. Nobody opposed this, so I created it.

The word Hebrew refers here to descent rather than language. The purpose of the category is defined as the intersection of the head categories i.e. 1st century Christians of Jewish descent. I will explain this on the category page. - Fayenatic (talk) 17:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A veritable quagmire! Why not say "1st century Christians of Jewish descent"? At least this would be clearer. One quote from Acts does not clarify matters. This quote may be using "Hebraic Jews" as opposed to "Hellenistic Jews", the latter cat appears to include St. Pauld. PatGallacher (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very good point. I have no objection to renaming the category.

Is that suggestion unnecessarily long? The terms "early Christians" and "early Jewish Christians" are well understood, in Christian circles at least. The CFD included support, following the article Early Christianity, for moving Category:Ancient Christianity to Category:Early Christianity, with sub-cats Category:Early Christians and Category:Early Jewish Christians 'instead of using the ugly "1st-century" form in categories'.

On the other hand, "early Christianity" goes beyond the first century, and this particular category's rationale is limited to that first century, so I'm prepared to replace this category with the name you recommend then tag it for deletion as db-author. Agreed? - Fayenatic (talk) 19:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer Category:Early Jewish Christians or possibly Category:Early Judaean Christians. By the first century Hebrew was no longer a living language, more a classical language used in worship, with the common language being Aramaic. The people were Judaeans which give rise to the modern word Jew. At this period, the Jews were still a single ethnic group, in contrast with the medieval period when they were the adherents to the Jewish faith. Furthermore, I do not think it would be a good idea to try to distinguish the Hebraists of Acts from the Hellenists: we do not have enough evidence to know who belonged to which group. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to confirm that there is no intention to categorise Hebraists separately from Hellenists. I'll remove the reference to that distinction from the category page. I was confusing that with the Jew/Gentile distinction. Mea culpa. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Descent from the Hebrews" is also a problematic concept. How do you prove someones descent over a period of several centuries? How exactly do you define "the Hebrews"? PatGallacher (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move on, Pat. I've admitted that calling it "Hebrew" was a mistake. We're discussing what the best replacement name would be.

Peter, why "Early," since "Early Christianity" covers over three centuries rather than one? Any members after the first century should simply be in Category:Converts from Judaism to Christianity. - Fayenatic (talk) 21:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]