Template:Did you know nominations/Glore Psychiatric Museum

Glore Psychiatric Museum

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The Tranquility Chair

• ... that Glore Psychiatric Museum has a "Giant Patient Treadmill", "Tranquility Chair", "Bath of Surprise" and "O'Halloran's Swing"?</s.

Created by Dennis Brown (talk). Nominated by Skr15081997 (talk) at 04:07, 28 June 2014 (UTC).

• New (25 Jun), 2223B, hook is good (part of ref AGF as offline), verified no copyvio in 2 ref, QPQ not needed.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 15:08, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I concur with the "good to go" review in all points, but I am wondering if we should add the picture of the Tranquility Chair? It is in the article and properly licensed. For that purpose I propose alt1. --MelanieN (talk) 20:15, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Alt1: ... that the Glore Psychiatric Museum has a "Giant Patient Treadmill", "Tranquility Chair" (pictured), "Bath of Surprise" and "O'Halloran's Swing"?

Sorry, but I'm going to interject a no-go tick here (though I never understand what any of these inner-spectrum ticks mean, exactly) until there's wider discussion. This article is supposed to be about the museum, but it really ends up being a "oh-how-ignorant-people-in-the-old-days-were" chamber of horrors of psychiatric treatment from the past. With the exception of the Cornell and National Library of Medicine sources, none of these sources is reliable for the statements made about treatment practices over the centuries -- they're gee-whiz guidebooks and the museum's own website. Typically ignorant content in this article is the quotation from roadsideamerica apparently trying to make Benjamin Rush look like some kind of fool by calling him "a big believer in leeches and bleeding". The article's a WP:COATRACK -- perhaps unintentionally so, but a coatrack nonetheless. EEng (talk) 11:58, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll respond, if I may. (I had intended to nominate this for DYK, but Skr beat me to it.) First of all, I agree about Rush and I will fix that. Second, I agree that this is not and should not be an article about the history of psychiatry, and I will remove it from that category. This is an article about a museum. As such it should describe the museum's mission, history, and collections. For those things, I think the guidebooks and the museum's website are acceptable as references. The only independently verified "history of psychiatry" items are the two you mentioned. I will make some changes in the article, and then I will come back here to propose a revised hook.

I think I may have come across a bit harsh -- sorry. I have to repeat, though that most guidebooks/ travel websites are low-quality sources, and should be used in only the most restricted way -- e.g. for museum exhibits, to say "The collection includes restraint devices, a mockup of a typical patient room, and obsolete surgical equipment" -- very straightforward stuff like that. Anything repeated about treatment practices and so on is just too easily sensationalized by these kinds of sources. The museum itself certainly has a serious purpose but I can't really discern its curatorial credentials so its website should be used with a touch of caution, I think, especially for anything sensational. This may mean the article may need to be cut a good deal. I'm not trying to shut this article down but I know a good deal about this subject and one of the worst mistakes made -- at all points in scientific and medical history -- is to think, "Oh, we're so much smarter than people used to be -- we'd never be so cruel or foolish." That's precisely the opposite of the lesson we should draw from a place like this Museum. EEng (talk) 18:33, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Those horrific exhibits are what makes the museum notable. Without them, it is merely another well-meaning museum, ignored by the public and struggling to stay open, run-of-the-mill, not qualifying for a Wikipedia article. With the sensational displays it is famous and is written up in detail in many national guidebooks - the best indicator of notability for something like this. I totally understand where you are coming from, in wanting to reject the message of these "cruel and foolish" exhibits. I'm sure there are museums, with articles here, whose message I reject with every fibre of my being. But here at Wikipedia we do not censor messages we disagree with. We are duty bound to base our articles on notability - and those weird exhibits are what is notable about this museum. I have made quite a few changes in the article, including a fix to the "Benjamin Rush" information, and a mention of the other exhibits besides the models. See what you think of it now. --MelanieN (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

P.S. I am proposing a new hook, limited to the devices that have independent confirmation that they were actually used. --MelanieN (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• alt2 ...that the Glore Psychiatric Museum displays full-sized reproductions of antique devices once used in the treatment of mental illness, such as the Tranquility Chair (pictured) and the Bath of Surprise?

Coupla things:

• First of all, notability isn't the criterion for article content -- it's only the test for article topics. See WP:N
• This has nothing to do with wanting to censor anything. It has to do with reliable sourcing. Roadsideamerica, legendsofamerica, and Haunted Missouri: A Ghostly Guide to the Show-Me State’s Most Spirited Spots are not reliable sources. For example:

• Haunted Missouri: "The patients and staff in that building were continually talking about seeing a lady in a flowing gown in the museum at night
• Roadsideamerica:

• "The museum has a reproduction of Rush's bleeding knife that was distributed to promote a drug manufacturer; they were recalled after a patient grabbed one off his psychiatrist's desk and stabbed him to death." Yeah, except Rush died in 1813, the term psychiatrist was almost completely unknown until about 1900, and the concept of a recall was invented about 1970. It's made-up sensationalist nonsense.
• Or the "'Giant Patient Treadmill', a device similar to a gerbil wheel..." Oh, please. While this does give an appropriate physical image of the device, its inclusion is obvious;y meant to imply the reduction of patients "to animals" or something -- ignorant of the fact that a treatmill did not, at that time represent "useless effort" as it does today, but was a common way of providing power to an industrial process i.e. a mill, so this is a completely distorted impression to give.

It's one thing for a sensible statement to carry a . It's quite another to adopt, wholesale. sensationalist nonsense from sites which help parents keep their kids from being bored on road trips. I really need to ask that material cited to these three sources be removed.

• I think your ALT2 is fine. Here's another possibility:

ALT3: ... that on the grounds of the Glore Psychiatric Museum are some 2000 graves, numbered but not named?

(but we'd need a different source from that currently in the article for this). EEng (talk) 21:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I think we can get by without the "Haunted" and "Roadside" sources; although the nonsense you cited is not in the article, I take your point that the sources are not to be trusted. I'll remove or replace those two sources. (Of course, eliminating those two sources will also eliminate your proposed Alt3.) I would prefer to keep the "Legends" source; it doesn't seem to contain unlikely or sensationalist claims like the other two, and it has a lot of helpful history of the prison and museum that I don't find elsewhere. --MelanieN (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I'm not some ultimate arbiter but I appreciate your understanding my special concern on this topic. I've tagged Haunted as which is a way of saying that maybe someone in the next 500 years will substitute a better source. EEng (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

"Haunted" is gone. So is "Roadside." So is the entire paragraph about numbered graves, and families dropping off patients with the clothes they should be buried in. I added a new source to verify the O'Halloran Swing and the Bath of Surprise. --MelanieN (talk) 21:51, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

P.S. You may have created a monster when you got me looking up sources. 0;-D I found a quote from Glore about the rationale for the museum - how looking at "the atrocities of the past" helps people realize how far we've come. --MelanieN (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Are we there yet? --MelanieN (talk) 22:08, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned it's fine now. Please bear in mind that as far as I can tell Glore was a very dedicated Mental Health Dept. employee, but one without any particular training in medicine, history of medicine, etc., so be careful quoting him as if he's an expert. Again, thanks for tolerating my interference. EEng (talk) 00:35, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

If your issues have been resolved, would you mind posting a "good to go" checkmark, just so it is clear to the hook promoter? And specify, for their benefit, which hook to use? --MelanieN (talk) 01:46, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll use the magic summoning tool to bring the reviewer back: Redtigerxyz -- abracadabra!. Striking all but ALT2 since as you say it's the only one based on the sources remaining in the article. EEng (talk) 02:26, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

The ref does not say that the "Tranquilizer Chair" in Glore Psychiatric Museum is a model based on chair was invented by Benjamin Rush. WP:OR concerns. Similar problem with "the Bath of Surprise". The ref only says "that the Glore Psychiatric Museum displays full-sized reproductions of antique devices once used in the treatment of mental illness" part.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 05:41, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

MelanieN, we trusted you! Into the Bath of Surprise! EEng (talk) 05:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection. We know, from the reference cited, that "George Glore, an employee of the St. Joseph State Hospital, helped construct a series of full-size replicas of primitive 16th, 17th, and 18th century treatment devices for a Mental Health Awareness Week open house. Those exhibits impressed the hospital officials and sparked the idea to create the Glore Psychiatric Museum. Today, George’s treatment device replicas remain an integral part of the museum’s exhibits." We know (from references 5, 6, and 7) that a Tranquility Chair and a Bath of Surprise were in fact devices once used in the treatment of mental illness. What is the original research that you are finding? --MelanieN (talk) 06:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The article says "The models, together with a growing collection of other artifacts"; these others may include the said artifacts. The quoted text above does not say that they were models. Ref 5 which uses "Tranquilizer Chair" does not say that the museum has a model called The Tranquility Chair. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

By "artifacts" I meant things from the actual hospital - " artifacts from the mental hospital, including medical equipment, staff uniforms, photographs, and artwork and writing created by the patients." The Chair and the Bath could not have been something used at the actual hospital, because they were already obsolete when the hospital opened; they are in fact exactly the kind of thing that Glore made models of, namely "primitive 16th, 17th, and 18th century treatment devices". The fact that the museum has these things on display is on page 2 of the cited reference #2 [1]. I have added a couple of additional citations to reference #2 for clarity. --MelanieN (talk) 06:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

But page 1 says "Beginning with several full-sized replicas of 16th, 17th and 18th century treatment devices that were created for a mental health awareness exhibit, he soon began to look for other items that would illustrate how the treatment of mental illness had progressed over the years. George Glore spent the larger part of his 41 year career with the MissouriDepartment of Mental Health in developing the largest collection of exhibits featuring the evolution of mental health care in the United States." This suggests that the chair or the Bath may not be models, as such by the hook. "Also featured is a "Tranquilizer Chair” where patients were said to have sometimes been strapped into for as long as six months." suggests that it could have been used and not a model. Can't find anything about the Bath. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:04, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

The Bath is the "douching tank" referred to in the reference. Glore made it clear, when he referred to "the atrocities of the past", that he was talking about THE PAST, not current or recent practice. "were said to have sometimes been" - this is "said to have" happened, not actually did happen at the hospital. But let me understand what you are actually objecting to: is it the word "reproductions" in the hook? If that's the problem maybe I can write another hook that doesn't use that word - although it seems obvious beyond question that these things are some of Glore's models. The museum has them; they are devices from earlier centuries; that is exactly the kind of model Glore made. --MelanieN (talk) 07:21, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's leave the might-have-been issues and concentrate on the hook. A few days ago you approved the original hook without question. Now you have all kinds of problems with the current hook. Could you explain what exactly your problem with this hook is? Then maybe we can work out something we can both agree on. This is the currently proposed hook. --MelanieN (talk) 09:02, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• alt2 ...that the Glore Psychiatric Museum displays full-sized reproductions of antique devices once used in the treatment of mental illness, such as the Tranquility Chair (pictured) and the Bath of Surprise?

Children! Children! Do not quarrel! Maybe take a look at the museum website -- maybe you'll find the sourcing needed, or a different hook. I kind of like the unmarked grave thing -- maybe that will be in the site somewhere. EEng (talk) 07:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

The "unmarked grave" thing has kind of been debunked; see the article's talk page. And we're not quarreling, we're DISCUSSING. You and I were able to work out our issues; Redtiger and I will be able to also. --MelanieN (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Redtiger, if the problem is that you question whether these really are models (reproductions), how about this hook? --MelanieN (talk) 09:07, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• alt3 ...that the Glore Psychiatric Museum displays examples of antique devices once used in the treatment of mental illness, such as the Tranquilizer Chair (pictured) and the Bath of Surprise?

When I approved it, the reference I saw was presumed as RS; now proved otherwise. My objection was to the word "reproductions", which the ref didn't say so. Also, what I sensed from the refs is that: Glore did not build all of them, but perhaps also collected antique pieces related to psychiatry. Can we use "Tranquilizer Chair", which is the term used in the ref? Also, can you cite a ref for "Bath of Surprise" that it exists in the museum or else remove it from the hook. If the exact term is not used, use "dunking bath" (used in Museum site) in the hook. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 10:04, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I have changed "tranquility" to "tranquilizer" in the hook and at the article. About whether the museum has a "Bath of Surprise" on display: the photo of the Bath of Surprise in the article was actually TAKEN at the Glore Museum.[2] If that isn't enough evidence for you, let's remove the bath from the hook and just leave the chair. --MelanieN (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

The ref call this a mundane "dunking bath", not a "Bath_of_Surprise". We should remove it or use "dunking bath". Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's remove it from the hook. The museum itself calls it "Bath of Surprise" per the photo, but apparently you don't accept that. "Dunking bath" (per one reference) or "douching tubs, where patients were drenched with ice cold water" (per the other reference) are not interesting enough to go in the hook. --MelanieN (talk) 17:09, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• alt4 ...that the Glore Psychiatric Museum displays examples of antique devices once used in the treatment of mental illness, such as the Tranquilizer Chair (pictured)?

Good to go. Unless Headmaster EEng has some comments. :) Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:55, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Your smart mouth's gonna earn you timeout in the Chair of Tranquility one of these days. EEng (talk) 06:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Striking alt3. EEng, your quirky commentary is a good relief from wikipedia's "official" bureaucracy talk. Always a good laugh. :) Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)