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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and processes can be discussed.

Nomination backlog drive?

Proposal

Has DYK ever done a nomination backlog drive? It might be worth trialing a competition? The rules could change but as a starting point i've added some below.

Rules:

• 48 hours long.
• 1 point for a first full review.
• 2 points for a second review.
• Prize = picture hook Barnstars
• Reviews aren't eligible for QPQ usage if taking part.

Desertarun (talk) 10:22, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

Congratulations! Your DYK has been approved!

-EEng

• I don't think we have because it hasn't really been a problem like GA have had thanks to the introduction of QPQ. It's usually been quite a steady stream with occasional peaks and troughs. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

  And anyway no one uses picture hooks anymore. As a landlord I insist tenants use that Command Strip stuff. EEng 13:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

@Desertarun: our backlog is usually small, and is listed like this: Older nominations needing DYK reviewers. The GA method is admirable, but we don't usually accumulate enough to do it that way. Good idea, tho. Thanks for mentioning. — Maile (talk) 19:55, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think there is a problem and that a backlog elimination drive would be an excellent idea. At the moment there are 226 unreviewed nominations as against 72 approved. That's an enormous backlog of 154 nominations that are not going to be reviewed under the QPQ system. We could adopt Desertarun's suggestion, or if we were to require regular submitters of hooks to review two nominations instead of one, that would help bring the number down. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  What does 226-72=154 have to do with anything? EEng 10:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  It means we have a backlog of 154 reviews! Many of which will languish for weeks...Desertarun (talk) 10:38, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  No, it doesn't mean that. The backlog of noms needing review is 226, period. Subtracting the 72 approved noms has nothing to do with anything and is completely nonsensical.EEng 13:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  @EEng: I think you are mistaken. The historic figures 226-72=154 means that at that time, there were 226 current nominations. Of these, 72 had been fully reviewed and had been moved to the "approved nominations page", and 154 were either completely unreviewed or had been partially reviewed with some issues remaining outstanding. The 226 and the 72 figures will both decrease by one each time a hook is promoted to a prep set. Each day, an average of 10 hooks is nominated, so 154 hooks represents a built-in delay of around 15 days (at one set a day) or 7.5 days (at two sets a day). Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

  Look, you said there are 226 unreviewed nominations as against 72 approved. If that's correct, then 226 unreviewed nominations is 226 unreviewed nominations is a backlog of 226 nominations needing review, period, and subtracting 72 makes no sense. However, having now looked at the stats table for myself I'm quite sure that what you meant to say is that there were 226 total nominations, of which 72 were reviewed. In that case 226 less 72 gives 154 as the number of unreviewed nominations, and that's the backlog: 154. But I was going on what you said. EEng 17:51, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

  Yup, I made a mistake and you are right. There's still a rather large backlog however. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

  Actually, EEng#s, I think Cwmhiraeth was correct to subtract the number. The first column shows all nominations – approved and unapproved. The second shows approved noms. Subtracting the total of the latter column from the former gives you the number of unapproved noms still awaiting finalization. Note that this is not the same as unreviewed noms; many in the "unapproved" column have had at least one reviewer look at them. However, we don't appear to total those up "reviewed but not yet approved" noms anywhere. MeegsC (talk) 17:46, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

  I think this has been done to death now. EEng 01:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

  A lot of those 226 do have reviews however. I'm not sure exactly how BlueMoonset's list of the oldest unreviewed DYKs is generated, but in the most recent report all but three of them are from within the past month. At about this time last year hooks more than a month old made up half of the list, which suggests to me that currently normal DYK processes are working quite well. The nom/approved gap was 228 back then too, so I don't see a current problem. There are of course other benefits to such a competition, which if nothing else might officially capture some of the great effort clearly being put in by editors to keep DYK running so well, similar to how monthly reviewing statistics are captured at WT:FAC. CMD (talk) 06:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  It sounds like re-reviewed articles should offer double points? This would encourage editors to tackle stalled nominations. Desertarun (talk) 07:41, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  ... and further worsen the backlog since you've reduced by one the number of reviews someone is required to do. EEng 10:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry, I think this is a terrible idea as presented. (Picture hooks as prizes?) I agree that this is a solution in search of a problem, and possibly one that would make problems. Unlike at GAN, the mandatory QPQ at DYK means that if the number of open DYKs went below a certain number, it would cripple the ability of new DYKs to be nominated and only result in a worse, compounding backlog as people scramble to fill their slots. Vaticidalprophet 08:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  if the number of open DYKs went below a certain number, it would cripple the ability of new DYKs to be nominated – Sorry, that makes no sense. Look, suppose the entire system was empty -- no approved nominations, no unapproved nominations, nothing. Now I make a nomination and you make a nomination. I review yours to get my QPQ, and you review mine to get my QPQ. Now everything's reviewed, everyone has a QPQ, the two nominations get promoted (or closed as unusable) in due course, and then the system is back to zero again. You seem to be saying a backlog is somehow necessary. It's not. EEng 10:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think that because new nominees don't have to do reviews we have a built in backlog. This means many have to wait 3 or 4 weeks. Managed properly we can speed things up and we won't get comments saying DYK is broken. I think people don't like waiting. Desertarun (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  Well, duh. Managed properly, how? We've got two classes of nominators: those who have to do one review for each nomination they make, and those who can make a nomination without doing a review. From that it's perfectly obvious that, absent some other force at work, the backlog can only grow. Luckily, there is another force at work, to wit the occasional good Samaritan who does a review for free; but we really shouldn't be thus relying on the kindness of strangers. EEng 13:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think an occasional backlog drive is good for this reason.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• I also think the occasional drive is a good idea: perhaps a weeklong blitz like that they do at WP:GOCE. Instead of a picture hook as a prize, I suggest barnstars. Z1720 (talk) 13:58, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

• Since the whole point is to reduce the number of unreviewed/unapproved nominations, the only way a drive like this will accomplish a reduction in outstanding reviews is if the rules state that reviews submitted for this drive are not also eligible to be QPQ: the barnstar rewards are for reviews external to the QPQ process. QPQ by itself cannot cover submitted nominations on a 1 for 1 basis, since new submitters get five freebies, and not every review that qualifies as a QPQ results in an approval or rejection.

About a year ago, when we were getting overwhelmed by unreviewed nominations, I started preparing a drive (see here for a draft proposal; I consulted with Cwmhiraeth and Yoninah at the time, and used GAN backlog drives and GOCE blitzes for inspiration). The drive was originally going to be ten days, then eight as the unreviewed numbered dropped, and then volunteer reviewers stepped in and took care of a significant part of the backlog, leaving a drive no longer necessary, so I never proposed it on this page. Although the number of nominations awaiting review or approval is 150 (we have an additional 77 nominations approved and awaiting promotion), we could certainly do a two- or three-day trial run, offering barnstars for new reviews and completing stalled/abandoned reviews, and see how much progress is made on the backlog. The number of barnstars and the levels needed to earn them would need to be adjusted for the shorter length of the drive. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:42, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I would support such a backlog elimination drive. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support. That is very well thought out. It could replace my proposal with adjustments at your discretion. Maybe you could post some or all of the draft here. Desertarun (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I've adjusted the proposals to add that reviews aren't eligible for QPQ if you are taking part and it will last 2 days. I will leave this open for a couple more days, then ask someone uninvolved to read consensus, say yes or no, and close. Desertarun (talk) 14:23, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Procedural note. I've updated the proposal rules on four occasions during the course of this conversation to take on board the best practise views of other editors. Desertarun (talk) 17:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
    • Closure. Can an admin or other person in good standing close this with a decision. Desertarun (talk) 19:00, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Where to find a closer?

Congratulations! Someone made a formal closure of the discussion of a DYK backlog elimination drive!

-EEng

Where should I post to find a closer for the Nomination Backlog Drive thread? Desertarun (talk) 14:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Nowhere. A close isn't what you need. What you need is to drum up more support. Right now you've got two people (one of them you) saying Let's do it, two saying that an occasional drive is a good idea but not clearly behind this specific proposal, someone suggesting a trial run, two opposes, and two people making various side comments. Restate exactly how it's to work and how long it will run, then get clear !votes on that. Then you won't need a close. EEng 16:27, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I will write a formal proposal and ask people to vote, it'll probably take a week or so to put it together. Desertarun (talk) 07:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Formal proposal for a DYK Backlog Drive: Vote in section below

Background

What is the purpose of the backlog drive?

The purpose of this drive is to reduce the number of nominations we currently have, and as a consequence reduce the average waiting time before a hook is featured on the main page. In order to manage their workload other wiki-projects use backlog drives, see; Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Backlog elimination drives and Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/July 2021. This drive is a trial, if it is successful there would be further drives in the future.

How big is our backlog?

DYK works with a large built in backlog - right now the total backlog is 300 hooks. To understand the backlog please imagine DYK is shutting down! Further imagine we stop taking new nominations immediately, green light everything in the queue and then run 8 hooks per day until everything has been featured. The question now is; how long will it be until the last hook exits the main page? The answer is 37 days. Why do we have 37 days of hooks sat there waiting? Who does this suit?

The hoped for purpose of this drive is to get an extra 120 hooks approved and run down the total backlog to 180 hooks. This would reduce the backlog by 15 days, meaning on average everyone gets on the main page after 22 days.

Why do we have a backlog?

We have a backlog because there are two classes of nominator; regular DYK editors who have to do one review for each nomination they make; and new DYK editors who can make 5 nominations without doing a review. Absent some other force at work, the backlog can only grow. There is another force at work, the occasional good Samaritan who does a review for free; but we shouldn't be relying on the kindness of strangers.

The process

The backlog drive will begin on Wednesday 14 July at 00:00 UTC and finish on Thursday 15 July 23:59 - lasting 48 hours. Please check the start in your time zone on the prep building queue HERE. Reviews completed by participants are not eligible for later use as QPQ. Instead, you will receive a barnstar as recognition of your contribution. I will be producing a results table with a first place but do not rubber stamp or copy-paste reviews in an attempt to win. For a new review on an unreviewed hook you will receive 1 point; for a second or subsequent review on an already reviewed hook you will receive 2 points, second reviews must be full and include all criteria, not merely addressing one or two missing criteria. Nomination reviews started before the drive or completed after the drive don't count.

Rules summary

1) Each review of a new nomination is worth 1 point
2) Each second or subsequent review of a nomination is worth 2 points
3) 48 hours long
4) Reviews aren't eligible for QPQ usage
5) No rubber stamped or copy pasted reviews
6) Participants are awarded barnstars

Co-ordinator

Desertarun will be the co-ordinator. Questions should be logged on Wikipedia talk:Did you know for community discussion and will be transcluded there if placed on my talk page.

Results

An unofficial results table will be produced within 2 days of the end of the drive. It will list username, position on the table, number of first reviews completed, number of second reviews completed and the number of points scored. Users will be ranked from most points scored to least. To be eligible for amendments to the results, you must log issues within 48 hours of me producing the unofficial table. Statistics will also be produced giving the number of first reviews, the number of second reviews and the total number of approved nominations. Official results will be published within 7 days of the backlog drive completion.

Awards

Barnstars are awarded for participation. The first, second and third place barnstars are awarded for first, second and third most points accumulated. Barnstars are also awarded for completing 1, 3, 5, 10 and 15 full reviews. Participants are eligible for 1 barnstar only. If you complete 10 reviews and are second place in points you can choose either the second place barnstar or the 10 reviews barnstar, but not both.

	1 full review The Minor Barnstar		15 full reviews The Barnstar of Diligence
	3 full reviews The Modest Barnstar		Third place (points scored) The Reviewer Barnstar
	5 full reviews The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar		Second place (points scored) The Order of the Superior Scribe of Wikipedia
	10 full reviews The Tireless Contributor Barnstar		First place (points scored) The DYK Barnstar

To participate in the drive

Enter your username in the participants list below, familiarise yourself with the rules and carry out reviews between Wednesday 14 July at 00:00 UTC and finish on Thursday 15 July 23:59. Please check the start in your time zone on the prep building queue HERE. Log your reviews after completion under your username and indicate the outcome of the review with the symbol you used to complete the review. Only add a review here once you have completed the review. If you review a multi-article nomination, please note how many articles you reviewed for that nomination e.g. write "(two articles)", to be sure you are given the proper credit.

The usercode, icons and an example are noted below. If you are unfamiliar with the code it may be easier to copy someone else's details and swop in your name and templates, alternatively you can ask on Wikipedia talk:Did you know.

User code

====[[User:Username|Username]]====
{{Div col}} 
#{{subst:DYKtick}} [[Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename1|Articlename1]]
#{{subst:DYKtickAGF}} [[Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename2|Articlename2]]
{{Div col end}}

Symbol	Code	DYK Ready?	Description
	{{subst:DYKtick}}	Yes	No problems, ready for DYK
	{{subst:DYKtickAGF}}	Yes	Article is ready for DYK, with a hook reference accepted in good faith
	{{subst:DYK?}}	Query	DYK eligibility requires that an issue be addressed.
	{{subst:DYK?no}}	Maybe	DYK eligibility requires additional work.
	{{subst:DYKno}}	No	Article is either completely ineligible, or else requires considerable work before becoming eligible.

Example showing a user and their completed reviews

This example user has listed their username and completed 5 reviews. Each review had a different outcome as indicated by the icon in front of the template they have reviewed.

Desertarun

1. Template:Did you know nominations/William Gregson (slave trader)
2. Template:Did you know nominations/William Davenport (slave trader)
3. Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Leyland
4. Template:Did you know nominations/Ralph Fisher
5. Template:Did you know nominations/George Case (slave trader)

List of participants

Username

1. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename1
2. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename2
3. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename3

Username

1. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename1
2. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename2
3. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename3

Username

1. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename1
2. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename2
3. Template:Did you know nominations/Articlename3

Vote on formal proposal for a DYK backlog drive

• Support as proposer. Desertarun (talk) 11:23, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I'm sorry to throw cold water, but this seems like a lot of machinery for something that should be simple. And 48 hours is far too little time. Reviews take time, and often require assistance from experienced editors; you're proposing compressing everything into an exhausting marathon for no apparent reason. EEng 14:03, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: I believe that the current backlog is 200, not 300. (100+ have already been approved, right?) Simply getting more nominations approved will not reduce the overall backlog (that is, how long it takes for hooks to hit the front page), unless we also up the number of sets per day. MeegsC (talk) 20:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Yeah, I appreciate what Desertarun's trying to do, but there's just too much deadweight in all this and even basic arithmetical facts are getting confused.

  Look, if we want to eliminate the backlog, here's what to do: Until further notice, everyone who's made at least 10 nominations needs to do two reviews (instead of the usual one review) when making a new nomination. (Honor system -- people who come under this provision know who they are.) The threshold is set at 10 (not 5) so we don't get flooded with reviews by novices. Easy, steady, no elaborate apparatus needed. When there are no unreviewed noms left, back to the usual rules. EEng 20:21, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Strongest possible oppose to EEng's proposal of demanding 2 reviews. One review already takes significant time, 2 reviews would be a ridiculous burden. Let people choose to do more reviews, but don't force it onto people. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:27, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  ridiculous burden – No hyperbole there. That's exactly the can-do, let's-all-pull-together, I'll-do-it-if-you-will spirit that makes DYK what it is today! Anyway, you don't have to do any extra reviews if you don't want, just while others are doing all the work to eliminate the backlog, you hold off making any new nominations until the backlog's gone and rules go back to normal.

  Or, here's an idea. We'll say that anyone who doesn't want to do the extra review can get out of it by saying, when making a nomination, I don't feel like doing an extra review like everyone else, and you can't make me. And then you can do just one review like usual. OK? EEng 21:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  I would be happy to do additional QPQs when I have time. I and others would not be happy to be forced to do 2 every time we nominate. Also a proposal like this for a DYK rules change would need a proper RFC with clear consensus. Rather than being latched onto a proposal to make it voluntary. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  I just said you can opt out if you want; I'm sure no one would accuse you of shirking or anything. And thanks for the lesson about consensus and stuff. I'm new around here and don't know how things work. EEng 00:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support original proposal in principle, so long as people aren't forced into doing extra reviews. Those that have the time and willingness to help should be encouraged and rewarded (with e.g. barnstars) for doing so, but forcing additional mandatory requirements on an already cumbersome process is not beneficial to DYK. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:27, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  Gosh, with all those tempting barnstars as motivation the backlog will be gone in no time! EEng

  Well people put in time to promote DYK noms to preps and queues, so it's not unreasonable to think that people can dedicate some time on an ad hoc basis to the odd extra QPQ or two. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:10, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

  What people can do, and what they will do, are two different things. To clear the backlog of 200, a hundred people would need to do two extra reviews each over the course of two days. Monkeys might fly out of my butt, too. EEng 00:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

  I'd rather get a barnstar because someone actually decided I was worth a barnstar, rather than an automated one just because I did a few extra reviews. Now if you amend it to say I get a Ferrari or a spa weekend for two with fancy Michelin starred meals thrown in then I might be tempted...  — Amakuru (talk) 23:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support the idea, oppose in this current form The idea is great and I think this is a great draft for a format, but I have some concerns: 48 hours is too short and I think it should be a week. Also, I don't think this should run in July: it will take some time to get this set up and advertised (especially because it's the first) and GAN's drive is happening right now, limiting the number of reviewers that will participate in DYK's drive. I suggest delaying this until August or September to give more time for this to be set up. I also suggest that Desertarun seek out additional coordinators to help with managing the drive, especially someone who is very experienced in DYK: GOCE has 4 coordinators to set up their weeklong blitzes and drives, while GAN's drive has 3. Having more coordinators to help with problems that arise will help this drive become a success. Z1720 (talk) 23:56, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Older nominations needing DYK reviewers

The list below includes 36 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through June 9. We currently have a total of 230 nominations, of which 78 have been approved, a gap of 152. Thanks to everyone who reviews these.

Over two months old:

• April 17: Template:Did you know nominations/William Lovelady (ALT2e ALT2f needs review)

Over one month old:

• May 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Sabacc
• May 13: Template:Did you know nominations/On China
• May 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Lajia
• May 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Jimmy Carter 1976 presidential campaign

Other old nominations:

• May 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Living in the Age of Airplanes
• May 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Big Time Wrestling (Boston)
• May 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Sambisa Forest (2021)
• May 30: Template:Did you know nominations/Tiféret Israel Synagogue attack
• May 30: Template:Did you know nominations/Nilima Arun Kshirsagar
• May 31: Template:Did you know nominations/Josh Phillips (murderer)
• May 31: Template:Did you know nominations/Habibur Rahman Khairabadi
• June 1: Template:Did you know nominations/32nd anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests
• June 1: Template:Did you know nominations/June Fernández
• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Christa Ludwig (writer)
• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Annie Kanahele
• June 2: Template:Did you know nominations/Everett report (three articles)
• June 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Metta Lillie
• June 3: Template:Did you know nominations/The Yankee
• June 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Wynne Neilly (requested for June: Pride month)
• June 4: Template:Did you know nominations/William E. Woods (requested for June: Pride month)
• June 4: Template:Did you know nominations/Ellora Derenoncourt
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Michael McIntyre (sailor)
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Chris Gittens
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/WBPX-TV
• June 5: Template:Did you know nominations/Raychell
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Hebbel Theater
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Mandau Talawang Pancasila
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Kake (comics)
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Abeer Odeh
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Neva Milicic Müller
• June 7: Template:Did you know nominations/Hanan Awwad
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Roxham Road
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Neha Narkhede
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/William Davenport (slave trader)
• June 8: Template:Did you know nominations/Hugh Leatherman
• June 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Leah (metal musician)
• June 9: Template:Did you know nominations/Tyra Lundgren

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 16:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Updating the hook version that needs review for the April 17 Lovelady DYK Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Olympics holding area?

The 2020 Summer Olympics run from 23 July to 8 August- should we setup a holding area for Olympic-related hooks to be run between these two dates? In 2016, we ran about 1-2 Olympic hooks in most sets, which seems acceptable to me. There's at least a couple of Olympic-related DYK noms already, plus WP:Women in Red are doing an Olympics & Paralympics event starting on 1 July, so I expect an increase in Olympic-related hooks soon. And later on, we should probably also setup a holding area for the 2020 Summer Paralympics, which in 2016 had fewer hooks than the Olympics one. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. Desertarun (talk) 07:36, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Works for me. —valereee (talk) 20:34, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I've been away from wiki, thanks to whoever set up the Olympic holding area. There's already a few noms in there. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Mislabeled sections?

It looks to me like the subsections at Wikipedia:Recent additions are off by a day. The subsection Wikipedia:Recent additions#30 June 2021 has the blurbs that were on the main page on 29 June 2021, not 30 June 2021. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Looks like the bot got something wrong while switching from 24-hour sets to 12-hour sets. @Shubinator, something for you to look at? —Kusma (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

This is expected. The timestamps at Wikipedia:Recent additions are when the hook leaves the Main Page, not when it's placed on the Main Page. This behavior predates DYKUpdateBot and reflects community consensus; up to the DYK community if any changes need to be made. Shubinator (talk) 00:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. To me it's very unintuitive – just my two cents. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to the DYK hall of mirrors. EEng 04:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Annie Kanahele

Ezlev, the article's nominator, has indicated that he will be off-Wiki until at least the end of July. The article currently has a "when" tag which is preventing me from approving the nomination. Would anyone be able to resolve the issue so that the nomination can be passed? Thanks. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:34, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The tagging is strange, in the fact that creator/nominator @Ezlev: put that tag on there himself with the first edit. Maybe they meant to remove it before publication??? — Maile (talk) 01:51, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I get the tagging. You know something is true -- maybe from something you've read before but can't find again -- so you include it, with a cn tag or whatever, to remind yourself to circle back. —valereee (talk) 01:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, I just went through every Hawaii resource I have that might give a hint to that info. About all I find is a mention here and there when she gets an award, and her obits that are already in the article. Nothing brings up the specifics of the tagged item. — Maile (talk) 02:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

She was president in 1971, but not sure when her term started or ended. DanCherek (talk) 02:21, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

[1] this may be a lead to offline sources. MB 02:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Queue 4: Charlie Wheatley

• ... that Charlie Wheatley had a seventh-grade education and three honorary degrees in engineering from the University of Tulsa?

I'm not really sure what the purpose of this hook is. The guy was a baseball player and then became a businessman. Is the implication that being only schooled up to seventh-grade but then later getting degrees in engineering is a big leap? I feel like if we're going to highlight this aspect of his life, then the article should give more detail about it and it should be clear why this is remarkable. Further details on how he got awarded the degrees for example. Being a top baseball player and then inventing valves is a fairly interesting leap of career in its own right, so highlighting those two things would be another option. Anyway, perhaps I'm just missing something, so I'm putting this out here for further feedback before it goes live or before I decide to reopen the nomination. Pinging @Muboshgu, Epicgenius, and Vaticidalprophet: as nom/reviewer/promoter. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:34, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Amakuru, I thought this was fairly straightforward. Wheatley had a seventh grade education, and then made it big in business and received three honorary degrees in engineering. The article mentions his businesses, patents, etc. What more needs to be said? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: yeah I guess so. Probably the issue is that as a non-American, the term "seventh-grade" doesn't mean that much to me. If the intention is to highlight the difference between his early education and the later degrees, maybe something like "but achieved three hononary degrees..." could describe it?  — Amakuru (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I presume this hook means he dropped out of school at age 13 (as seventh-grade = Year 8 in UK terminology, which is age 12-13)? If so, could the hook say he left school aged 13, rather than assuming people know what American grade systems are? Joseph2302 (talk) 16:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

As a non-American I completely understand what "seventh-grade education" is, but I keep being surprised by what things some other non-American editors don't recognize (generation gap?). "Left school at 12/13 [if the article makes the exact age clear, which it may not, and so might force us to stick with this] but attained three honorary degrees" works fine. Vaticidalprophet 16:44, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I had added the link to seventh grade for the benefit of the non-US readers, and am totally okay with any additional clarifications that make it comprehensible for the worldwide audience. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Since honorary degrees are just that (i.e. not gained through academic achievement), I think I'd find it more interesting if the hook said "left school at 13 but founded a multi-million dollar business" or "left school at 13 but became an inventor with 21 patents to his name" or something similar. Black Kite (talk) 17:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Student incomplete DYK nomination; does anyone want to adopt?

The Template:Did you know nominations/Coral Reef Restoration DYK nomination form was created (but not transcluded) back on March 27, while the article was still in userspace; the nominator's final edit on Wikipedia was on April 7, but another editor from the class moved the article into mainspace on May 10. Which is where we find ourselves today: an untranscluded nomination on an extant article.

The entire final "Efforts" section consists solely of three bold external links, so if this is to run as a DYK, it would need to be deleted entirely; similarly, there's at least one subsection elsewhere that is a header without any text, something also not allowed under DYK rules. However, the article looks reasonably solid and otherwise eligible, though the hooks could be a problem: the first is not mentioned in the text, the second is a stronger statement than I find supported in the text, and the third just doesn't work: "methods are being done" is too vague (and thus problematic on the "interesting" front as well).

This needs someone willing to do some article clean-up, create a workable hook, and shepherd the nomination through the DYK process, including transcluding the nomination under May 10 and being willing/able to deal with any issues that might arise during the review. (Wiki Ed hasn't responded with any assistance.) If no one steps up in by July 8, I will have the DYK nomination page deleted as abandoned. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I cleaned the article up and referenced it, so its in better condition if anyone wants to take it on board. Desertarun (talk) 21:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

The topic interests me so I will adopt the nomination. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:19, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Desertarun has made significant improvements to the article and I have proposed a new hook. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I reworked the lead to standardise it. I'm not doing any more editing or offering any hooks but I think the topic deserves a feature on DYK. Desertarun (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Cwmhiraeth, thank you for adopting it, and when you think the nomination is ready for a reviewer, please be sure to transclude it on the Nominations page (under May 10). Thanks also to Desertarun, for their work as well. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, that's done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:02, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Moving to special occasion holding area

Once a nomination is approved, what is the etiquette for moving a nom with a requested post date to the special occasion holding area? In some cases, I see the nominator moving it. I don't see any explicit instructions on that, but I could also see some COI concerns. I ask because I nominated one and it has been approved and I'm wondering:

1. Do I just move it to the holding area myself, and eliminate any risk of it getting lost in the shuffle (never put off until tomorrow what you can do today)
2. Wait for an independent party to do it, and periodically check that it gets done in time (patience is a virtue)
3. Just post a note here and get it out of the way (the squeaky wheel gets the grease)

The procedure is not entirely clear to me based on the current text at Template talk:Did you know/Approved § Special occasion holding area. Thanks in advance.—Bagumba (talk) 10:14, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I see it as fine to move your own hooks to a date request holding area. I do it all the time (most recently an hour ago, I moved one of my own hooks to the Olympics holding area), and it saves the effort of someone else doing it, or someone accidentally promoting it on the wrong date. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:26, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

In this scenario, a prep queue builder can screen inappropriate requests, as can anyone else beforehand.—Bagumba (talk) 12:08, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I've moved a hook as a reviewer before, but I believe a nominator could move it themselves after awhile if no one else does so. I do think it is good to periodically check in as per your number 2 in any DYK situation. Anyway, the request seems reasonable, and there are no other noms on that date that might conflict, so I have moved it. CMD (talk) 14:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Once Upon a Time - In 2019, when we updated the criteria/instruction on moving to Special Holding area, I recall having an ongoing discussion about who can move a hook to a special holding date. Mostly, I remember it because a nominator had requested the date, nobody moved if after it was approved, I moved it for the nominator and was reverted by someone else who didn't think the date was special enough. And later I recall moving a couple of my own hooks to Special Holding, and nobody even noticed, I guess. I find nothing clear in writing about who should move these special occasion hooks. And if it's not in writing - say, in one simple sentence - and right above the Special Holding section, I think you use your own judgement as to who moves it. But once somebody moves it to special holding, I don't think it's appropriate for someone else to yank it out of special holding. — Maile (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• When I have special holding area hooks, I almost always move them myself because it is not fair on the reviewer to have to take on an extra burden. I agree with Maile66 above, once its in there it shouldn't be just removed on a whim because the nominator has already consented to it being there. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 19:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• A special occasion request is just that: a request. It is not appropriate for the nominator to move it themselves, because the request may not be appropriate: we've had ones for the birth date of an anime character played by a voice actress, for example, that have been rejected. Unlike Maile, I have no qualms about removing any nomination from special occasions that was moved in by the nominator rather than by a reviewer or other independent editor: we should have an independent judge of whether the request is appropriate/reasonable, and if the reviewer who approved it doesn't do the move, then the nominator can request that someone take a look on this talk page. Moving hooks is no real burden—I'm surprised to see that claim—and given The C of E's past problems with their special occasion hooks, they should certainly not be moving any of their own to that area. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• We had a concern with Canada Day (July 1): consensus on this talk page was to limit the amount of Canada Day hooks, but many nominators still moved their hooks into the Special Occasions Holding Area (SOHA) for Canada Day. We ended up having 7 or 8 Canada hooks (depending how you count them) scheduled to run on July 1. They were split into two groups of 4, even though it was unclear if there was consensus to run four Canadian hooks in a hook set. I agree with BlueMoonset's comments above in theory, but in practice I don't think many reviewers know that they should move the hook they approved into SOHA, so nominators move it to ensure their hook runs on the date they requested. I would support either a few SOHA Coordiantors, who would be responsible for monitoring SOHA and flagging concerns here, or assign a coordiantor for a specific date (like International Museum Day) who will coordinate the prep area for that hook set. Z1720 (talk) 16:23, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm not a fan of most special occasion hooks in general; they're often relatively tenuous and just serve to force the hands of prep-builders. They also make it more difficult to handle problematic hooks (as if something needs to be bounced back to DYKN it'll probably miss the date) and are easy to miss at the very end of the DYKNA list. I suspect the solution to our problem might be rejecting most date requests. Vaticidalprophet 16:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
    • @Vaticidalprophet: who should be rejecting date requests, and what criteria should they use to make that determination? Right now it seems like very few requests are rejected. I would like to hear other's thoughts on this question, too. In response to your comment that date requests "are easy to miss at the very end of the DYKNA list", I've thought for a while that maybe it should be moved to the top of the approved page, so that prep builders have to scroll past these requests first and are thus more likely to notice them. Z1720 (talk) 05:03, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
      • My own preference -- likely on the more conservative end -- is that special occasion hooks should be something with very clear, obvious ties, such that the hook would suffer visibly if it ran out of order. Ideally these should be relatively major events (I don't much like the "hold stuff for every Hallmark holiday" practice), although I recognize that, say, telling GLAMs not to hold an "International Museum Day" set is a tall order. In the case of dates where the special occasion itself impacts the hook set, most notably April Fool's, the matter changes a bit but still shouldn't be a "if you say you want a hook to run on this date you've guaranteed it" situation -- often the best hooks for April Fool's aren't the hooks placed in that section. But, broadly speaking -- I want date hooks to be something where it's really non-negotiable, because I don't think it justifies the disruption to prep-building to spontaneously decide "oh, and can we run this on the 137th anniversary of this guy's wedding?". Special occasion hooks are hard to navigate -- DYK changes from 12 to 24 hour sets often enough that you honestly have no clue what you're building for a lot of the time. In terms of a regimented group of people permitted to reject them, I'm unconvinced that won't primarily serve to add bureaucracy, rather than just people with a decent grasp on prep-building looking at the matter. Vaticidalprophet 05:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Prep3

The mathmatics thesis that’s just been promoted to this set has been at AfD for a few days. Schwede66 19:57, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The Equidistribution of Lattice Shapes of Rings of Integers of Cubic, Quartic, and Quintic Number Fields is the link to the article itself. — Maile (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I promoted it and have pulled it. It looks like it will survive AFD so it can be promoted again at a later time. Desertarun (talk) 20:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Did you return the nomination template back under the nominations to be approved? What date was it originally listed as? That way, you keep it within the time frame of eligibility. — Maile (talk) 21:07, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah right, I didn't think of that. I will try to do it, but please check later in case I've made a mistake. Desertarun (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Its gone back in the nominations to be approved under June 19. Desertarun (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 21:27, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

The Yoninah set is now live on the Main Page

@Valereee: thank you for putting together the Yoninah set. It's on the main page right now, and it's just so special for us to see that set there. — Maile (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm so happy to have it there. I hope it does her honor, and well. —valereee (talk) 00:54, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm aware that Yoninah has died. What does "the Yoninah set" refer to, if I may ask? Schwede66 00:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

What is on the main page right now, is a set of hooks selected from various hooks that originally appeared on the DYK main page site when Yoninah nominated them. After she died in January, we had a lengthy DYK discussion about the best way to honor her memory, and it was decided the best way was to compile a set of her own hooks. There is also a Yoninah Service Medal in the works, that can be awarded to (I think) prep builders. — Maile (talk) 01:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

What a kind and appropriate thing to do. Thanks, everyone. Schwede66 04:06, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Its a brilliant commemoration. Thank you to all those who made it happen. Victuallers (talk) 06:29, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Israel/Jewish-themed?

I'm just interested why this current batch of DYKs all seem to be Israel/Jewish themed. I don't think it's a particularly special day in the Jewish calendar today. Am I missing something? --Coin945 (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Today is the memorial set for Yoninah, a major force in DYK who passed away in January. Her editing focus was Israeli/Jewish topics, so a DYK set built from her hooks will reflect it. Vaticidalprophet 07:31, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Wondered this as well - a fitting tribute. GiantSnowman 08:26, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

They are not recent nominations and have all been in DYK before. They are not the set on this page either. Secretlondon (talk) 16:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I missed something, but I remember back when we had this discussion about this DYK set, the plan was to have a varied set of her hooks, not just specifically Israel/Judaism-related ones. Was there consensus to go with just those topics for the set rather than the mix that was originally proposed? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Harry S. Truman 1948 presidential campaign

I have nominated the article "Harry S. Truman 1948 presidential campaign" for DYK here and requested it to appear on July 14/15 (i.e. - DYK running from 14 July 20:00 at NY to 15 July 20:00 at NY). Although it is not yet reviewed, in my opinion it meets the DYK criteria and the nomination is made at least one week prior to requested date. The reason is mentioned on the nomination page. Per WP:DYK#Date requests, I have informed the same on talk page. Please let me know of any issues. Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:16, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Kavyansh.Singh, I would recommend in the future that you think about submitting noms for "special date requests" a lot farther out. We've already set most of the hooks for that date, and have 100+ already-approved nominations in the queue before yours! We'll do what we can, but... MeegsC (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that DYKRULES says "The nomination should be made at least one week prior to the occasion date, to allow time for reviews and promotions through the prep and queue sets, but not more than six weeks in advance." We should probably change the 1 week minimum to 2 weeks, as hook promotions are done up to 2 weeks in advance. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:43, 4 July 2021 (UTC)